If you were Satan....

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Athetotheist
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If you were Satan....

Post #1

Post by Athetotheist »

I remember a TV preacher once asking his broadcast audience, "If you were Satan....." I don't remember the rest of the question, but I seem to remember that he was talking about prophecy and arguing that Satan was up to some diabolical mischief ("If you were Satan, isn't that what you would do?").

A lot of detail in Christian scripture about what is to happen before Jesus returns is tied to the activity of "Satan". The appearance of the "antichrist", in particular, is supposed to be part of Satan's last gambit before he goes down to utter defeat.

Since it was asked of me how I would react if I were Satan, I think it's fair for me to answer. I know that "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?

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The Nice Centurion
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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #81

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:12 am [Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #79
in your obsession to further your end (sucessfully arguing against all christian mythology), you blind yourself to my own arguments so much as like a Bigfoot fanatic does when he tries to prove Bigfoots existence
Have I "blinded myself" to your arguments, or have I simply countered them? I think I've argued my case fairly successfully; is that an "obsession"?
Thats the problem. Instead of logically countering my arguments with your counterarguments, you just assume I am wrong where you believe you are right.
For example my statement of, as weil as my further arguing the point that believers might credibly say that a yet unfullfilled prophecy can still be fulfilled, got no real counterargument. Instead you just stated I were wrong.
Here, I found a debate thread about exactly my argument:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1530
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:12 am [Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #79
That is like arguing against the existence of Captain America and the american way of life, by saying that the Red Skull acts irationally sometimes.
(He doesnt, of course. The Red Skull is a very stringent man.)
Your comparison between "Satan", a theological figure, and various comic book characters is, I believe, one of your arguments which I've successfully countered.
You didnt counter it at all. Not, succesfully, and not even unsuccesfully.
All I Gott from you was 1)the question if I do compare modern Supervillains with a biblical Char, and 2)your statement that Marvel Comics are Made for entertainment .

But one could also state that Marvel Comics are produced to get money from readers.
Is it impossible that the bible was written by priests ans tribal leaders to get money, or what counted for money back then, from religious followers?
What do you think, who ate the animal and goods sacrifices? Who accepted and spent the temple takes? Why happened in the early middle ages the following miracle: A saint found a letter that fell from heaven and was signed with "Lord Jesus Christ". It substantially ordered believers to give as much money to the churches as possible.
In our days the letter would be signed with "Joe Quesada", of course (right until his recent retirement), but beside of that we have a perfect comparison.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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The Nice Centurion
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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #82

Post by The Nice Centurion »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:32 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:12 am [Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #79
in your obsession to further your end (sucessfully arguing against all christian mythology), you blind yourself to my own arguments so much as like a Bigfoot fanatic does when he tries to prove Bigfoots existence
Have I "blinded myself" to your arguments, or have I simply countered them? I think I've argued my case fairly successfully; is that an "obsession"?
Thats the problem. Instead of logically countering my arguments with your counterarguments, you just assume I am wrong where you believe you are right.
For example my statement of, as weil as my further arguing the point that believers might credibly say that a yet unfullfilled prophecy can still be fulfilled, got no real counterargument. Instead you just stated I were wrong.
Here, I found a debate thread about exactly my argument:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1530
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:12 am [Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #79
That is like arguing against the existence of Captain America and the american way of life, by saying that the Red Skull acts irationally sometimes.
(He doesnt, of course. The Red Skull is a very stringent man.)
Your comparison between "Satan", a theological figure, and various comic book characters is, I believe, one of your arguments which I've successfully countered.
You didnt counter it at all. Not, succesfully, and not even unsuccesfully.
All I Gott from you was 1)the question if I do compare modern Supervillains with a biblical Char, and 2)your statement that Marvel Comics are made for entertainment .

But one could also state that Marvel Comics are produced to get money from readers.
Is it impossible that the bible was written by priests and tribal leaders to get money, or what counted for money back then, from religious followers?
What do you think, who ate the animal and goods sacrifices? Who accepted and spent the temple taxes? Why happened in the early middle ages the following miracle: A saint found a letter that fell from heaven and was signed with "Lord Jesus Christ". It substantially ordered believers to give as much money to the churches as possible.
In our days the letter would be signed with "Joe Quesada", of course (right until his recent retirement), but beside of that we have a perfect comparison.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #83

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #81
Thats the problem. Instead of logically countering my arguments with your counterarguments, you just assume I am wrong where you believe you are right.
For example my statement of, as weil as my further arguing the point that believers might credibly say that a yet unfullfilled prophecy can still be fulfilled, got no real counterargument. Instead you just stated I were wrong.
I didn't just state that you were wrong (I never even used the word "wrong"). Again, as I argued before, it isn't about what believers can say; it's about what "Satan" could theoretically do----or, more specifically, not do. No matter how long Christians say it might take for prophecy to be fulfilled, if it's prophecy about what "Satan" is to do then it's up to "Satan" to do it. If he were to choose not to fulfill it, it wouldn't get fulfilled. Ever.

I didn't see "Satan" brought up at all in the thread you linked to, so it really doesn't address what I'm pointing out about what he, specifically, could do [if he existed].
You didnt counter it at all. Not, succesfully, and not even unsuccesfully.
All I Gott from you was 1)the question if I do compare modern Supervillains with a biblical Char, and 2)your statement that Marvel Comics are made for entertainment .

But one could also state that Marvel Comics are produced to get money from readers.
Is it impossible that the bible was written by priests and tribal leaders to get money, or what counted for money back then, from religious followers?
What do you think, who ate the animal and goods sacrifices? Who accepted and spent the temple taxes? Why happened in the early middle ages the following miracle: A saint found a letter that fell from heaven and was signed with "Lord Jesus Christ". It substantially ordered believers to give as much money to the churches as possible.
In our days the letter would be signed with "Joe Quesada", of course (right until his recent retirement), but beside of that we have a perfect comparison.
What has any of this to do with "Satan" theoretically choosing not to fulfill prophecy?

The sacrifices were brought by people who were told to believe that they should be brought. The taxes were paid by people who were told to believe that they should be paid. And people are told to believe that "Satan" will just go along and fulfill prophecy about himself, but that doesn't mean he would have to. Whether or not it was written to profit the authors is irrelevant; what matters is what the reader is told to believe and whether or not it actually has to be believed.

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #84

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:12 am "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:56 am "Satan" could theoretically do----or, more specifically, not do. No matter how long Christians say it might take for prophecy to be fulfilled, if it's prophecy about what "Satan" is to do then it's up to "Satan" to do it. If he were to choose not to fulfill it, it wouldn't get fulfilled. Ever.
Your OP, as well as your debating this thread, suffer from the Begging the Question Fallacy and congruently from the Mangler Argument Fallacy !
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #85

Post by Willum »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #75]

Athetotheist is right, you're wrong, I am not sure how you could think otherwise.
So I am not even going to suggest why. He already has.

It is very easy for Satan to win, unless he is not a free agent.
Of course if Satan is a automaton, its a poor sort of prophecy...
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #86

Post by Athetotheist »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:01 am
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:12 am "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:56 am "Satan" could theoretically do----or, more specifically, not do. No matter how long Christians say it might take for prophecy to be fulfilled, if it's prophecy about what "Satan" is to do then it's up to "Satan" to do it. If he were to choose not to fulfill it, it wouldn't get fulfilled. Ever.
Your OP, as well as your debating this thread, suffer from the Begging the Question Fallacy and congruently from the Mangler Argument Fallacy !
I am not Begging the Question by assuming that "Satan" would want to thwart prophecy; that assumption comes directly from the kind of character he's supposed to be. What kind of rebel would such a character be if he didn't want to thwart prophecy?

As for the "Mangler Argument Fallacy", I'm not familiar with it; you're going to have to explain it to me.

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #87

Post by The Nice Centurion »

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #86]
Firstly; That Satan is "Hyperintelligent" springs not from bibleo-mythical source, but from evangelical propaganda.
Once again the evangelicals and you yourself copy Marvel Comics who stated once:" A heros Nemesis must be mightier than the hero, so that the hero is even more gloryfied when he wins."

In Satans case you all do not dare to make him mightier than an omnipotent god, but still as able as he gets. Modern people depend so much in who is brightest, so you want Satan to be hyperintelligent.

But no matter how bright Satanis, there is no proof that he could skip fullfilling prophecy.

We do not know why an omnipotent god should abstain from, say, mindmanipulating him rather than be brandmarked as a liar by his nemesis.

That a mythical being can just choose not to fullfill prophecy is just a theory unproven.

Further is unproven that not fullfilling prophecy would serve Satan well.
In another thread I remarked that the Second coming is christianitys greatest miracle after the resurrection.

Richard Carrier writes, that to win a debate one must refute ones adversary best claims.
Perhaps Satan knows that he must win against Jesus when the half-god has just played his best remaining miracle to make it a real win.

For remember; We do still not know what Satans plans are, what he has in store for the time AFTER HE WINS ARMAGEDDON. This deserves an extra thread of course!

When we find out more about Satans plans for his reign and our future we will be more able to say if your anti-prophecy-proposition holds any water or not.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #88

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #87
url=./viewtopic.php?p=1084330#p1084330]Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #87[/url]
Once again the evangelicals and you yourself copy Marvel Comics who stated once:" A heros Nemesis must be mightier than the hero, so that the hero is even more gloryfied when he wins."
You've been the one resorting to comic-book arguments. I've been trying to argue this on a more mature level.
In Satans case you all do not dare to make him mightier than an omnipotent god, but still as able as he gets. Modern people depend so much in who is brightest, so you want Satan to be hyperintelligent.
It occurs to me that "Satan" could nullify prophecy by simply not fulfilling his part, and he would have to be at least as bright as I am.
But no matter how bright Satanis, there is no proof that he could skip fullfilling prophecy.
You've offered no solid argument as to why he couldn't.
We do not know why an omnipotent god should abstain from, say, mindmanipulating him rather than be brandmarked as a liar by his nemesis.
If anyone were manipulating "Satan", then he wouldn't be acting on his own will and, thus, wouldn't be responsible for his actions.
That a mythical being can just choose not to fullfill prophecy is just a theory unproven.
Again, you've given no compelling reason to believe otherwise.
Further is unproven that not fullfilling prophecy would serve Satan well.
In another thread I remarked that the Second coming is christianitys greatest miracle after the resurrection.

Perhaps Satan knows that he must win against Jesus when the half-god has just played his best remaining miracle to make it a real win.
The fulfillment of prophecy is miraculous, so if "Satan" nullified Christian prophecy, he would win against Jesus.
When we find out more about Satans plans for his reign and our future we will be more able to say if your anti-prophecy-proposition holds any water or not.
Really----you've let on like a skeptic, but here you're talking like an all-out apologist. Are you sure that isn't your game?

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #89

Post by The Nice Centurion »

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #88]

My Main point is that prophecy is called so 'cause it is meant to happen, no matter what!

Oedipus parents tried to thwart the Oracles prophecy that their son would one day slay his father and marry his mother.
This try brought them no good.

Perhaps Satan read Oedipus and learned a thing or two. We dont know.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: If you were Satan....

Post #90

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #89
My Main point is that prophecy is called so 'cause it is meant to happen, no matter what!
Prophecy is supposed to happen, but that doesn't mean it will. A prophecy can theoretically be true or false.
Oedipus parents tried to thwart the Oracles prophecy that their son would one day slay his father and marry his mother.
This try brought them no good.
Oedipus was written by Sophocles, who was a playwright-----not a prophet. And even if the Oracle's prophecy was true, there's no "Satan" in the Greek pantheon, so it doesn't advance any of your arguments about him.
Perhaps Satan read Oedipus and learned a thing or two. We dont know.
You're still talking about "Satan" like he's real, further fueling my suspicion that you're a stealth apologist. Either that or a gadfly with nothing better to do than waste time arguing just for argument's sake.

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