Is Western civilization based on Judeo-Christian values?

[McCulloch]

The United States is implicitly Christian, not explicitly Christian. These are two different concepts that both theists and nontheists have a hard time understanding. The United States, and all of western culture, is based upon Judeo-Christian values and virtues and Christianity in particular has played a vital role in the history of the west, far more than any other religion or philosophy has. Had Islamic expansion into Europe been more successful during the Middle Ages the United States and the rest of the west would probably be implicitly and explicitly Islamic.

Is the United States based on Judeo-Christian values? Is Western culture based on Judeo-Christian values?

What are Judeo-Christian values? Specifically, which Judeo-Christian values is Western civilization built on?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 10 by zeromeansnothing]

I am sorry you don't understand what I am trying to tell you. Perhaps you should become more educated on the concepts such as the founding principles of western civilization which are not "commercialism/consumerism/capitalism" these are bi-products of the modern age but are not the basis for western civilization. The age of Enlightenment began in the 1600's and gave rise to Western civilization as we know it today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

People did not just suddenly disregard religion as you put it. However, this did revolutionize culture and government. The constitution of the United States is a product of that.

I am trying not to talk over you so please give me clear cited examples of what confuses you so I can elucidate the points I am trying to make.

[zeromeansnothing]

Hi DanieltheDragon,
I think it is simply a case of you being wrong rather than it being a requirement to elucidate more. Look at your wix link in it's simplest

wix:The Age of Enlightenment (or simply the Enlightenment or Age of Reason) was a cultural movement of intellectuals beginning in late 17th-century Europe emphasizing reason and individualism rather than tradition.

[1] Its purpose was to reform society using reason, to challenge ideas grounded in tradition and faith, and to advance knowledge through the scientific method. It promoted scientific thought, skepticism, and intellectual interchange.

[2] The Enlightenment was a revolution in human thought. This new way of thinking was that rational thought begins with clearly stated principles, uses correct logic to arrive at conclusions, tests the conclusions against evidence, and then revises the principles in the light of the evidence.

zero: When did any of this actually catch hold. I could write the same about Witchcraft. I could write the same about the history of washing clothes. What modern democracy is founded on 'reason'. Look at the wix words and you will see the problem.


........................emphasizing ................to reform.................to challenge.................to advance................ It promoted ..............etc etc.

This was not an emergence from anything, it was a search for something in a darkened room. It was a search for a light switch that was never found. Can you detect the presence of 'reason' in the modern world. I cannot.

Western Civilization is based on pseudo-judeo- Christian triumphalism and missionary zeal. We need aliens so badly so that we can introduce them to 'Christian Love.'


ps :Human Enlightenment in 2014: I find it poignantly sad that the Indians of my old westerns rode horses introduced to them by their enemies and their ultimate vanquishers. History in this respect repeats itself and these rampant hoards of Islamic Jihadists will meet the same end on the backs of their Japanese Toyota's. How reasoned are our democratic actions. The answer is very. We check the till and we work off the number. The buck stops at this number. That is the bottom line of US Middle East Greco Roman thought which is just bad Christian Empire building in disguise.

[zeromeansnothing]

Hi McCulloch,

Judeo-Christian values

Do you mean,

---what is common to both
----what emerged after both
----the totality of both

I believe that such an entity does not in actuality exist, ie something that Judaism and Christianity agree upon that is not common to elsewhere. I'm stumped.??

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 12 by zeromeansnothing]

A lot of the cultural revolutions and literal revolutions that took place from the 1700's onward such as the American Revolution and the French revolution. Were products of a school of thought during the Age of Enlightenment. The founding principles of the respective governments such as freedom, liberty, and due process are based off of reason and logic not religious principles.

John Locke for instance was a primary driver of such change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke


It is easy to claim someone is wrong but I challenge you to provide actual evidence to the contrary.

[Strider324]

ElijahJohn scribed:

And speaking as a non-Jew, I think your assertion that Judaism is not an expansionist, colonizing culture is borne out by observation.

Huh? That very much depends on how you limit the scope of your observation. I'm not certain how many tribes other than the Midianites and the 5 kingdoms of the Amorites were conquered by the Israelites, but it was quite a few. The carnage, rape and pillaging sanctioned by bible god kinda makes British colonialism appear quite tame.

Also, I'm not sure it's meaningful to credit the 10 commandments as a representation of judeo-christian values as none of them from 5-10 are unique to those religions. I think it would be difficult to find a culture or religion that did NOT postulate that killing, adultery, stealing, coveting and bearing false witness were bad things to do.

[zeromeansnothing]

Strider324 :The carnage, rape and pillaging sanctioned by bible god kinda makes British colonialism appear quite tame.


This statement is just factually ''untrue'' A small nomadic tribe, running the gauntlet with its more powerful neighbours is hardly comparable to a super power that colonized in five continents through military ingenuity and extreme and relentless cruelty to its enemies and it's own sub classes. We can play a game of 'who is the worst' but you haven't a chance.

[zeromeansnothing]

DanieltheDragon:A lot of the cultural revolutions and literal revolutions that took place from the 1700's onward such as the American Revolution and the French revolution. Were products of a school of thought during the Age of Enlightenment.

The history book that I read stated that one was caused through a chain of desperation among the masses that comprised of tyrannical oppression . starvation and finally revolt. The other was a mix of the same taxed oppression coinciding with perceive opportunity to grab advantage.


A hatred of tyrannical monarchy is hardly reason or enlightenment.

Danton: ''Ah, better be a poor fisherman than meddle with the government of men!"

I have been reading about Voltaire, a remarkable man but can I ask you this question. Is it reason that causes revolution. I doubt it!

Humans may in fact be in possession of the faculty of reason. I would define this as the ability to recognise and observe a logical and apparent modus. We have never in fact decided to use this. The ambiguity of our evolutionary context, makes our religious whims seem more appealing than the sensibility that reason would lead us to. Jesus believed in the human ability to 'do the correct thing' I do not.

[Zzyzx]

.

We can play a game of 'who is the worst' but you haven't a chance.

Why should Christianity, modern / ancient / or medieval EVER be involved in "a game of who is worst?"

Don't its supposed / assumed / advertised standards and morals rise far above that level?

If (since?) it has not demonstrated "rise above", is its claim to fame "We aren't as bad as some of the others?"

[zeromeansnothing]

Zzyzx: Why should Christianity, modern / ancient / or medieval EVER be involved in "a game of who is worst?"

Neither Strider nor I were talking about Christianity, to my knowledge. He made an inaccurate comparison between the British Empire and the actions of the Yahweh God of the OT. I care nothing for Christianity and less for Yahweh but I do feel that the Judeo aspects of the OP are almost mischievous in that they are not a 'real connect' with Christian values.

I feel the Jews are entitled to a 'Promised Land' a Jewish State. They were nomads and they yearned that their God would find them a place that was safe and unique to them. That is all they want. That is not in any way ' Christian Colonialism' which is all- invasive and toxic. The Jews get bad press, they are violent 'apparently' . I do not buy this. I do not buy the selective sourcing of pillage references from the OT to caricature Yahweh as a war monger. Many atheists use this cheap shot to the detriment of their own argument. IMHO
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I actually agree with much of Strider's post ie this bit

Also, I'm not sure it's meaningful to credit the 10 commandments as a representation of judeo-christian values as none of them from 5-10 are unique to those religions. I think it would be difficult to find a culture or religion that did NOT postulate that killing, adultery, stealing, coveting and bearing false witness were bad things to do

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 17 by zeromeansnothing]

Your right there were a lot of socio economic values that drove said change but the principles in which these new governments were formed and the cultural changes that occurred centered around the Age of Enlightenment it is not a coincidence that the rediscovery of Roman and Greek literature precipitated this change.

There was a rising middle class in Europe

There were higher rates of literacy and education.

People wanted more than the monarch systems that were in place. You can also look at the protestant reformation as an analogous cultural revolution. Through growing literacy rates the invention of the printing press the proliferation of ideas swept through society and people for the first time in hundreds of years were able to question the catholic church and to a certain extent get away with it.


Governments founded during and after the age of enlightenment all incorporated concepts of reason and logic as well as greek and roman principles of government.

The history book that I read stated that one was caused through a chain of desperation among the masses that comprised of tyrannical oppression . starvation and finally revolt. The other was a mix of the same taxed oppression coinciding with perceive opportunity to grab advantage.

This would not be untrue however, this one excerpt is not the whole picture.

One thing is clear you have yet to establish which judeo-christian values are the founding principles upon which modern western civilization is built. Saying I am wrong and putting your fingers in your ears, an argument does not make. Please provide evidence to support your claim. Even if I am 100% wrong it does not make you right.