Following Jesus - a no-brainer?

[Masterblaster]

A message of compassion

What else were you doing today?
Exactly, it's a no-brainer!
If not, why not?
What logic makes it otherwise?

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER
I will need to return to your Post 10 ,many times to engage with all the issues you raise.

You say - "In fact I don't care for the character of gospel - Jesus, over much. He seems moody, snappish, overly critical, lacking and manners and a bit of a hypocrite and frankly, a bit cracked."

So:
Moody
Snappish
Over critical
Unmannerly
Hypocritical
Cracked!
These were the 6 that grabbed you.Please give your best examples of these from the Gospel writings, and we can consider them. I find these conclusions to be unfair.

[Masterblaster]

Hello
TRANSPONDER says - "...even without the stick and carrot of divine reward and punishment."

This aspect of following Jesus appears problematic to many people.
What is the worst aspect of this idea?.

Is it that people refuse to regard themselves as 'sinful' in any way?
Is it the blatant scaremongering of Christianity down through the ages?
Do you feel like the theology falls apart without the hard sell of the everlasting afterlife.

I propose that the Jesus message of compassion does not need props to be an obvious solution to our lives.
I propose that much of what is objected to by skeptics is 'waffle' theology and doctrine to begin with.

Love God
Love your neighbour
The kingdom of God is near.
Happy are the pure in heart for they shall see God.

[Masterblaster]

I have listened to many historians and theologians speak about the early church and I feel like most of them have misunderstood the basic message of the Jesus teacher. I do not think that his time was capable of understanding him. I feel that we have no such excuse.
The kingdom of God is made by people within God. It is based on justice ,mercy and faithfulness. Now that was new!

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER
I will need to return to your Post 10 ,many times to engage with all the issues you raise.

You say - "In fact I don't care for the character of gospel - Jesus, over much. He seems moody, snappish, overly critical, lacking and manners and a bit of a hypocrite and frankly, a bit cracked."

So:
Moody
Snappish
Over critical
Unmannerly
Hypocritical
Cracked!
These were the 6 that grabbed you.Please give your best examples of these from the Gospel writings, and we can consider them. I find these conclusions to be unfair.

"Now Mr Bar-Joseph, lie down and tell me about your mother -issues"

Jesus bites Peter's head off when he shows concern for the welfare of his master. Yet later on he asks to have the Plan cancelled so he doesn't have to go through the ordeal (even though he knows he'll be resurrection).He is pretty damning about Chorazin (where for all we can tell he appears to have had a good reception) and seems to relish its' eventual destruction. He accepts an invite to dinner by a Pharisee and , whether or not he eats it, plunges into a denunciation rather than politely discussing possible correction for the system) he damns the Lawgivers over supposed swank,cheating widows, killing the prophets and praying in public, which doesn't reflect the High regard in which Pharisees at least were held in Judea at the time. He advises sidelining Sabbath and temple and putting himself up as an object of admiration instead. I also don't like his policy of talking in parables so that those predestined to be damned won't understand his message. Nor am I impressed by his praise of ignorance and gullibility so only the ignorant and childish can understand his Wisdom.

Of course, I don't suppose the actual Jesus was anything like that and rather it reflects the views of the writers.

Hello
TRANSPONDER says - "...even without the stick and carrot of divine reward and punishment."

This aspect of following Jesus appears problematic to many people.
What is the worst aspect of this idea?.

Is it that people refuse to regard themselves as 'sinful' in any way?
Is it the blatant scaremongering of Christianity down through the ages?
Do you feel like the theology falls apart without the hard sell of the everlasting afterlife.

I propose that the Jesus message of compassion does not need props to be an obvious solution to our lives.
I propose that much of what is objected to by skeptics is 'waffle' theology and doctrine to begin with.

Love God
Love your neighbour
The kingdom of God is near.
Happy are the pure in heart for they shall see God.

One problem (if not the main one) with heaven and hellthreat is that it means that people are motivated by what they can get if they toe the line and fear of what they might get if they don't. Given that any system requires incentives and punishment for wrongdoers, atheists who do good (and some do though they don't make a dogma of it) do it without any thought of reward other than a hoped for improvement all around. This leads onto your next point. We have innate problems, that we know. But this is better approached through reason and empathy rather than somewhat outmoded Biblical morals. For examples, Being gay was a crime (never mind a sin) in my lifetime. Now it isn't. Slavery was once considered ok by society and the Bible; now it isn't by society but still is by the Bible. I agree that the message of compassion does not need props to be valid - Christianity, Jesus, the Bible and the church being some of the props we don't need and could well do without.

Even if the fire and brimstone is a bit passe today, the whole 'turn oir burn' message is frankly disgusting. Which brings up your point about Theology. Yes, it does fall apart. If the Eden scenario then Biblical Sin makes no sense. There is no point to Jesus dying on the cross . There never was anyway other than to create a monopoly on ticket sales to heaven for the Christian church.

And if there is no heaven or hell, then where is the stick and where is the carrot? You may be hinting at Feelgood. Well, to use an old simile one drunk or stoned might feel good, too, but I would rather see clearly not through a fog of booze or puggle. It's an old choice - hard truth or comfortable lies, but in fact seeing clearly (as I think the rational do) is it's own reward and a great one.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER
Thank You for your ideas. There is no intensity in your faux objections to the Jesus person. You admit as much yourself. You have fumbled together a few anecdotes, that may or may not be accurately recounted and then you pull a subjective exclamation from your lips. Just a bit of fun really.
Jesus's way of teaching appears to bug you. You expect more clarity, you expect less parables, less beating around the bush, less appeal to non-rational theology. Is this fair?

Jesus is mostly speaking to uneducated ,working class people. He is speaking to all ages and to both men and women. He is often speaking in noisy busy places where it is difficult to hold attention.
We are told that Jesus comes to set the downtrodden free. Who are the downtrodden?
Why is life walking on them.
Jesus, mostly through the parables , but also through his teachings ,attempts to uplift the spirits of these people. He tells them that they are vitally important to God. They are the bedrock of God's kingdom. Jesus encourages these people to confidently believe in a future within God.

You mention 'Feelgood' ,TRANSPONDER, as if it were just an hallucinogenic con. That is not what the hope of the Jesus message is. The message of Jesus to the downtrodden of his time is presented to them in a format that they had long been familiar with, ie Judaism.
I said this earlier
"The kingdom of God is made by people within God. It is based on justice ,mercy and faithfulness. Now that was new!"

No it was not new, it is ,rather, a new way of looking at a tired Judaism. Jesus was a reformist Jew.

[Masterblaster]

Hello
Many historians and theologians credit Paul with bringing the message of Jesus to the global audience that is the Gentiles. This expansion is portrayed within their analyses as happening subsequent to a rejection by Judaism of Jesus. I believe that the evolving Christian doctrine made a Jewish belief in the Jesus message untenable. The doctrine bought Rome and sold Judaism through Greek theology.

Again, Jesus was completely missed, in all this.
Jesus was born and grew up in an isolated rural community. I had the same upbringing, in a Catholic household. Looking back ,I now realize that I had not a racist, or snobbish, or elitist hair on my body. My parents , the school or the church never gave me one. In later life I mixed with all classes, races and religions with hardly a conscious thought regarding difference. If you learn anything from immigrants it is that people are all the same. Distinction based on race, class or creed is a learned thing.
Jesus ,in Judea in the 1st Century was in a human melting pot. Romans, foreigners, rich,poor,free,slave,women,sick, believers in whatever. He just saw these people as fellow human beings. He did not consider for one second that God would choose to be selective  with these people. Why would God limit itself in that way? The message of Jesus was for all from the get go.

[boatsnguitars]

A message of compassion

What else were you doing today?
Exactly, it's a no-brainer!
If not, why not?
What logic makes it otherwise?

Totally agree you should follow Jesus!

Give me your house, car and all your money.

Matthew 5:42
Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Luke 6:30
Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER
Thank You for your ideas. There is no intensity in your faux objections to the Jesus person. You admit as much yourself. You have fumbled together a few anecdotes, that may or may not be accurately recounted and then you pull a subjective exclamation from your lips. Just a bit of fun really.
Jesus's way of teaching appears to bug you. You expect more clarity, you expect less parables, less beating around the bush, less appeal to non-rational theology. Is this fair?

Jesus is mostly speaking to uneducated ,working class people. He is speaking to all ages and to both men and women. He is often speaking in noisy busy places where it is difficult to hold attention.
We are told that Jesus comes to set the downtrodden free. Who are the downtrodden?
Why is life walking on them.
Jesus, mostly through the parables , but also through his teachings ,attempts to uplift the spirits of these people. He tells them that they are vitally important to God. They are the bedrock of God's kingdom. Jesus encourages these people to confidently believe in a future within God.

You mention 'Feelgood' ,TRANSPONDER, as if it were just an hallucinogenic con. That is not what the hope of the Jesus message is. The message of Jesus to the downtrodden of his time is presented to them in a format that they had long been familiar with, ie Judaism.
I said this earlier
"The kingdom of God is made by people within God. It is based on justice ,mercy and faithfulness. Now that was new!"

No it was not new, it is ,rather, a new way of looking at a tired Judaism. Jesus was a reformist Jew.

Your deprecating dismissal aside, yep, pretty much.What is in the Gospels does not make me admire the Jesus figure very much.You are free to think differently. Nor his demagoguery.

And yes the comparison of Jesus-feelgood to a hallucinogen is an apposite one. Nor do I find your cherry picked reading of the Message very convincing. Peddling false hope through making Jesus their icon and dear leader with dire threats about what was coming. I'm just thankful every day I never took the pills they were selling outside my school, and I'm not buying it now.

Hello
Many historians and theologians credit Paul with bringing the message of Jesus to the global audience that is the Gentiles. This expansion is portrayed within their analyses as happening subsequent to a rejection by Judaism of Jesus. I believe that the evolving Christian doctrine made a Jewish belief in the Jesus message untenable. The doctrine bought Rome and sold Judaism through Greek theology.

Again, Jesus was completely missed, in all this.
Jesus was born and grew up in an isolated rural community. I had the same upbringing, in a Catholic household. Looking back ,I now realize that I had not a racist, or snobbish, or elitist hair on my body. My parents , the school or the church never gave me one. In later life I mixed with all classes, races and religions with hardly a conscious thought regarding difference. If you learn anything from immigrants it is that people are all the same. Distinction based on race, class or creed is a learned thing.
Jesus ,in Judea in the 1st Century was in a human melting pot. Romans, foreigners, rich,poor,free,slave,women,sick, believers in whatever. He just saw these people as fellow human beings. He did not consider for one second that God would choose to be selective  with these people. Why would God limit itself in that way? The message of Jesus was for all from the get go.

That's fine. Paul intended his salvation - doctrine for all the people of his nation (Rome). Jesus'mission was limited to Judea and Galilee - apparently to tell them they weren't good enough and the gentiles were the ones that were good enough. There's a message of hope. Even the Mosaic one was better.

I fully applaud a message for all, but it doesn't have to be linked to a bleeding heart icon. We are quite able to stand on our own without regular swigs at the bottle or a jab in the arm to keep us moving.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER
You say - "I fully applaud a message for all, but it doesn't have to be linked to a bleeding heart icon. We are quite able to stand on our own without regular swigs at the bottle or a jab in the arm to keep us moving"

Unfortunately, you reduce your argument to smearing the Jesus message with tired Marxist cliches. You indignantly reject the need for support and concern and you squirm at the notion that Jesus would be trying to help you.

Many people will grab desperately at what ever help they can get . That is the vulnerability of their reality.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER
You say - "I fully applaud a message for all, but it doesn't have to be linked to a bleeding heart icon. We are quite able to stand on our own without regular swigs at the bottle or a jab in the arm to keep us moving"

Unfortunately, you reduce your argument to smearing the Jesus message with tired Marxist cliches. You indignantly reject the need for support and concern and you squirm at the notion that Jesus would be trying to help you.

Many people will grab desperately at what ever help they can get . That is the vulnerability of their reality.

Aside accusation of my use of slogans a political dogma I detest, many people may well run to any snake oil salesman with an instant cure all. At least, the religions may hope so.