Apologetics & Illness

[Paul of Tarsus]

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #111]

Suffering is the catalyst to change. Death is not the end so why fear it? As people we may seem intelligent but we are clearly not omniscient. How can we judge what is fair? Its about the end game. Is it fair for the weak to survive? If you garden at all you understand that when an unfruitful branch emerges (a sucker) you prune it. Humanity is one branch growing out of control with very little fruit. God did not cut the whole branch off because it serves Him partially. Look around, humans as a whole are the ones in contempt. The world is a garden planted by, and for the Gardener. He had workers (sons of God) who tended the garden but they abused it. The humanity tree has grown out of control and the suckers are destroying other plants. For the sake of what little fruit is produced, He has not cut down the whole tree. However there is a fire that will burn through this garden.Thats what the book of Revelations is about. He is taking some of the choice fruit and allowing the fire to consume the tree. When the fire has past he will replant the fruit. God did not plant the humanity tree to serve it and cater to its will. This is the error in your equation. If I was a shepherd and bought a sheepdog to herd the sheep and it started killing the sheep, am I evil to destroy the dog? If the dog ran away should I feel guilty if he starves to death or freezes to death. He had a home I provided and food I provided but it served a purpose. I leave this debate with this; of all the things God could have instructed His people to do, He chose love. He didnt say kill and conquer to those who follow Christ. When He was pruning the tree before Christ He did. We may not have survived this long if He didnt. He may allow the diseased branches to whither and some limbs to break but we cannot see the whole tree, just a very small section. As for me, I am thankful to the Gardener. Although at times I was burnt by the sun and cold by the snow, He did not let me wither. He watered me and sheltered me so in my thanks I will produce fruit for Him. That is my purpose.

I am not here to persuade you or anyone else to leave Christianity. I am happy that you have a purpose and I have no intention of depriving you of your purpose or faith.

"Ethics, too, are nothing but reverence for life. This is what gives me the fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, promoting, and enhancing life, and that destroying, injuring, and limiting life are evil." - Albert Schweitzer, "Civilization and Ethics", 1949. The Biblical God has harmed many living things. Therefore, the Biblical God is evil (imaginary or real). We are not omniscient but if God is omniscient and omnipotent, he could have made all of us equally omniscient and omnipotent. Why didn't God do that? It is impossible to harm omniscient and omnipotent beings. That would have been the best way to protect all beings from harm.

For the sake of the debate, if we assume that the Bible is true and humans die as a result of the disobedience of Adam and Eve, how is that ethical? Punishing Adam and Eve for disobeying God has some justification - although, if God had made Adam and Eve all-knowing and all-powerful, they would not have fallen for the deception by Satan. So, God is a flawed creator, to say the least. How is it ethical to punish all humans for the mistakes of Adam and Eve? I never asked to be conceived. I wish I were never conceived into this horrific and unjust world full of suffering, unfairness and deaths. Also, why punish all the other living things for the mistakes of Adam and Eve? That is totally atrocious. Hence, God is evil (imaginary or real). I have made the point on this paragraph several times on my other posts but you and other Christians keep avoiding responding to it.

[Paul of Tarsus]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #113]

Guilt implies blame for some wrong. "Nature" as I've used the word here refers to the fundamental traits of people.

The way I see it, it's our nature to blame others and feel guilt. Guilt is a powerful tool used in many churches because it's our nature to feel guilty, even with things we should have no guilt for.

I'm not sure about entire church groups, but some Christians will use guilt to manipulate unbelievers hoping they will convert. As I see it, we need Christ not so much because we are bad and therefore guilty but because we are weak. His mission isn't to denounce us but to save us from ourselves by giving us the strength to do so.

Human are unique in nature where we can try to live independent of some of our nature IMO. They don't always succeed, but trying shows it's possible in some sense.

It's impossible to be independent of one's nature. Can a square be round? Can a bachelor be married? Whatever we humans accomplish and whatever we become, it was what we were all along only we just didn't realize it.

And humanity wasn't really "set up for failure in the Garden."

I disagree 100%. God knew what was going to happen if he's all knowing like people claim. You can't be 'all knowing' but choose to 'not know' something past, present or future. If god is like this, Christians need to come up with another set of terminology other than 'all knowing' and that says 'know everything without limit'.
God also allowed Satan to tempt knowing (again with the all knowing feature) what would happen.

Yes, Christians need to come up with something to explain God becoming angry over what he presumably knew would happen. The solution to this riddle is that God didn't know that Eve and Adam would "take the bait." The God of the Bible does not know everything, and in particular he does not know all that will happen. He discovered that Eve and Adam had eaten the fruit, and I think he was surprised and bitterly disappointed when he made that discovery.

That, to me, is a set up.

With all due respect, what you're asserting here is illogical. Why would God "set up" Eve and Adam? Was he out to hurt them? If he was out to do them harm, then he would have simply hurt them. No games needed. I think that God honestly thought Eve and Adam would obey him--he certainly warned them of the consequences of eating the fruit. If you want to trap somebody, do you warn them ahead of time?

I believe it's best to think of the Bible as a book written by people about God rather than a book written by God.

Agreed. But for many Christians, this isn't a possibility.

I've known such Christians. I used to be a member of the Assembly of God. I had read the Book of Psalms, and to me it was just poetry that people had come up with to describe their feelings about God. I was soon very surprised to learn that the Pentecostals think the Psalms actually originated with God. God is a poet? Imagine that! LOL

I think that God will find nobody guilty for discovering mistakes in the Bible.

I'd hope not. But there's no way to know this for sure, which is yet another reason why people don't trust the bible or Christianity.

Christians do their faith a disservice when they claim the Bible is inerrant. Many Christians have lost their faith upon discovering mistakes in the Bible. If only they realized that the Bible comes from man, then they would understand that it is an imperfect book.

[SeekerofTruth]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #122]

Your distain for a Creator blinds you. Instead of trying to find truth, you argue from your presupposition. It doesnt matter what you think about Gods character. Whether you like Him or not cant bias whether there is a supreme being who engineered a planet and organisms. Instead of understand it all you just prefer to condemn it. News flash, humans learn allegorically. Why would you explain the scientific proofs to a Nomadic nation of sheep herding slaves? You wouldnt! Youd tell them fables they could rationalize. What they understood; food, snakes, suffering and paradise lost. I wish instead of scrutinizing the obvious flaws in the Bible and just see it for what it is. Its a puzzle with pieces missing. You cant just squish it together and say, "That looks stupid."

If there wasnt anything paranormal, people wouldnt study it. Do you think that every account of alien abduction is just unfounded? Who built the pyramids and monolithic structures? Who were the giants? Who had the cone head skulls? Why do some humans just completely fathom science way beyond understanding? Why did Alister Crowley claim contact with a spirit that looked just like a grey alien? Why has Vatican built a massive infrared telescope? Why when asked they said it was because they knew what was coming. Why has Vatican not released the third prophesy of Fatima? Why are there bunkers being built into mountains? Why has the oldest recorded civilization tell of a heavenly body "Nibiru" fly by our planet and devastate it like clockwork? Why does the Bible record that a devastation such as this starts the last days? Why is a pine cone illustrated in Egyptian art, and all through Vatican? Why is there a pine cone shaped gland right in the middle of our brains that releases DMT? Why have many cultures accredit this to the third eye, the Eye of Horus? Why did Christ say it was because of a lack of faith, His power to heal was limited in Jerusalem? Why is it stated in the Bible that the sons of gods (beings from the sky) saw that the daughters of men were fair and took them as wives and bore them children? Why do people claim today the same thing that they were abducted and impregnated?

These are all pieces that fit into the big puzzle. Can I prove there is life after death? No but there are those who come back from death with strikingly similar stories. Some claim to have out of body experiences. There are enough questions that individually can be dismissed but collectively cant be ignored. The sons of the gods impregnated women because we were made in their image, like it says. The Garden was allegorical. The tree of knowledge of good and evil is being taught right from wrong. The fruit is guilt! When you train a dog and teach him eating garbage and crapping in the living room are wrong, when he does it, he hides. Thats guilt and shame. When you forgive him and show him kindness after his guilt is dismissed and relationship is restored. Domesticated animals do not follow natural instincts. We were taught right from wrong by something, preventing us from following natural instincts. This is what causes humanity to be "fallen". This is paradise lost. Sacrifice of animals never was about forgiveness of sin. It is about the placebo effect caused by the remission of guilt. Emotions effect the frequency of the body. Look it up, theres lots of links. Restoration to the cosmic frequency that scientists deem singularity is dependent in your frequency. This is spiritual birth. Dont ask me to prove it. Ive connected the dots and this is the image I see. Is it perfect? No. Its a big freakin puzzle with a lot of pieces. All I can say look past your presumption. Have a good life. Im done here. Be blessed.

[Tcg]

Can I prove there is life after death? No but there are those who come back from death with strikingly similar stories.

Those stories are from folks who had NDEs, NEAR Death Experiences not DEATH Experiences. If they had actually died, they'd be incapable of telling stories. NDEs are evidence of life after life, not life after death. It's not surprising that those who didn't die continue to live. It is also not surprising that those who almost died had similar physical reactions. None of this points to life after death.


Tcg

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #123]

I'm not sure about entire church groups, but some Christians will use guilt to manipulate unbelievers hoping they will convert. As I see it, we need Christ not so much because we are bad and therefore guilty but because we are weak. His mission isn't to denounce us but to save us from ourselves by giving us the strength to do so.

Thank you for the well worded response.
People are weak, when compared to a supreme being. But outside of that impossible high standard, I don't think humanity is weak at all. I believe thinking we are weak is just as bad as thinking we're guilty. I found that teaching guilt and weakness go hand-in-hand with the same end result: a need to crawl and beg for forgiveness of a supreme being from sin I had no part in asking for (if you agree with the concept of inherited sin). And I find that, personally detestable.

It's impossible to be independent of one's nature.

Correct, which is why I said "Human[s] are unique in nature where we can try to live independent of some of our nature IMO. They don't always succeed, but trying shows it's possible in some sense."

The solution to this riddle is that God didn't know that Eve and Adam would "take the bait."

Then God isn't all knowing as many claim. As such, he's not worthy of worship IMO.

With all due respect, what you're asserting here is illogical. Why would God "set up" Eve and Adam? Was he out to hurt them?

Good question. So it's either the story is wrong, the belief in an all loving, all knowing god is wrong, or God isn't a 'good guy' many make him out to be. It doesn't make sense but, here we are.

Thank you for the response and being respectful - it's appreciated Going forward, sometimes my words come off rude. If you ever see me doing that with our back-n-forth, please let me know ASAP s that is never my intent; sometimes my written words are what's bouncing around in my brain.

[brunumb]

If there wasnt anything paranormal, people wouldnt study it.

Not really. Human beings are naturally curious. They want answers to questions. All the things you mentioned are essentially unanswered questions and that is why some people study them. Whether those pursuits are warranted or worthwhile is another question. For many it's seen as a wasted investment of time in chasing shadows.

[brunumb]

Your distain for a Creator blinds you. Instead of trying to find truth, you argue from your presupposition.

If you have found the truth please enlighten us on what it is and where and how you found it.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to SeekerofTruth in post #124]
You are mixing fiction and facts. I am not here to change your beliefs. I respectfully disagree with your worldview. I wish you all the best.

[Paul of Tarsus]

People are weak, when compared to a supreme being. But outside of that impossible high standard, I don't think humanity is weak at all. I believe thinking we are weak is just as bad as thinking we're guilty. I found that teaching guilt and weakness go hand-in-hand with the same end result: a need to crawl and beg for forgiveness of a supreme being from sin I had no part in asking for (if you agree with the concept of inherited sin). And I find that, personally detestable.

Well, maybe "weak" was the wrong word to use, but in any case I think you'll agree with me that much of what we need to do is beyond our ability to do. So let's just say we are "limited." Christ gives us that added boost to go beyond our limitations and achieve life and joy.

The solution to this riddle is that God didn't know that Eve and Adam would "take the bait."

Then God isn't all knowing as many claim.

The idea of an all-knowing God is derived more from theology than from the Bible. There are also a lot of logical difficulties that result from the idea of omniscience.

As such, he's not worthy of worship IMO.

You are picky!

Why would God "set up" Eve and Adam? Was he out to hurt them?

Good question. So it's either the story is wrong...

The story of the Fall is "wrong" if you take it too literally. Although there may be a historical basis for the story, it's primarily allegory.

...the belief in an all loving, all knowing god is wrong...

I think that the view that God is all-knowing is wrong.

...or God isn't a 'good guy' many make him out to be.

The God of the Bible reflects the times in which the books of the Bible were written. Since the Bible writers lived in very violent times, they wrote of a violent God.

Thank you for the response and being respectful - it's appreciated Going forward, sometimes my words come off rude. If you ever see me doing that with our back-n-forth, please let me know ASAP s that is never my intent; sometimes my written words are what's bouncing around in my brain.

As far as I'm concerned you can slap me around all you want as long as you're making sense.

[Tcg]

Christ gives us that added boost to go beyond our limitations and achieve life and joy.

You make Christ sound like a turbocharger. I understand fully how turbos provide boost, how does Christ do so?


Tcg