How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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otseng
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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1371

Post by kjw47 »

otseng wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:35 am From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

Few know the facts of the bible. God inspired his name in his written word in about 7000 places. By satans will to mislead wicked men removed it and replaced it in OT with-GOD or LORD all capitols. Nearly 6800 places in OT. In the NT the OT is quoted in about 200 more spots where the name belongs as well. Jerome told the Pope Gods name belongs in the NT. I do not know if Jeromes Latin vulgate included Gods name or not( i cant read latin) I am sure he had the originals to go by though.
Gods written word does not contradict itself. Not his real way it should be. Yes some translations are filled with errors beside the removal of Gods name. The religion that came out of Rome translated errors in to fit false council teachings. Those translations contradict Jesus teachings to the core and have caused much confusion over the centuries. Enough confusion that there are a great deal of different religions claiming to be christian, all claim to have holy spirit, yet all teach different truths on certain matters. Its not the holy spirit that causes confusion, its the lack of it that does. I would say the problem is, its using altered versions of Gods written word that is causing the confusion in a major way. Altered versions cannot be trusted, they were altered by satans will to mislead.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1372

Post by otseng »

Diagoras wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:54 pm
otseng wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:20 am This is the telltale sign that something is ad hoc - something is proposed that does not flow from the model and is created purely to address problems in the model.
Others would say, “refine the original model based on the results of experiment.” It’s pretty much standard for many physical sciences.
Not so for cosmology.
The scientific approach to the situation would be to choose a model, determine the parameters that best fit observations, and then revise the model as necessary – i.e., as new data comes in. But that’s not what cosmologists presently do. Instead, they have produced so many variants of models that they can now “predict” pretty much anything that might be measured in the foreseeable future.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... 527e5cb45e

As for refining inflationary theory, even one of the originators of cosmic inflation theory, Paul Steinhardt, has abandoned inflation theory.
Horgan: You were one of the originators of inflation theory. When and why did you start having doubts about it?

Steinhardt: From the very beginning, even as I was writing my first paper on inflation in 1982, I was concerned that the inflationary picture only works if you finely tune the constants that control the inflationary period. Andy Albrecht and I (and, independently, Andrei Linde) had just discovered the way of having an extended period of inflation end in a graceful exit to a universe filled with hot matter and radiation, the paradigm for all inflationary models since. But the exit came at a cost -- fine-tuning. The whole point of inflation was to get rid of fine-tuning – to explain features of the original big bang model that must be fine-tuned to match observations. The fact that we had to introduce one fine-tuning to remove another was worrisome. This problem has never been resolved.

But my concerns really grew when I discovered that, due to quantum fluctuation effects, inflation is generically eternal and (as others soon emphasized) this would lead to a multiverse. Inflation was introduced to produce a universe that looks smooth and flat everywhere and that has features everywhere that agree with what we observe. Instead, it turns out that, due to quantum effects, inflation produces a multitude of patches (universes) that span every physically conceivable outcome (flat and curved, smooth and not smooth, isotropic and not isotropic, scale-invariant spectra and not, etc.). Our observable universe would be just one possibility out of a continuous spectrum of outcomes. So, we have not explained any feature of the universe by introducing inflation after all. We have just shifted the problem of the original big bang model (how can we explain our simple universe when there is a nearly infinite variety of possibilities that could emerge from the big bang?) to the inflationary model (how can we explain our simple universe when there is a nearly infinite variety of possibilities could emerge in a multiverse?).

I have to admit that I did not take the multiverse problem seriously at first even though I had been involved in uncovering it. I thought someone would figure out a resolution once the problem was revealed. That was 1983. I was wrong. Unfortunately, what has happened since is that all attempts to resolve the multiverse problem have failed and, in the process, it has become clear that the problem is much stickier than originally imagined. In fact, at this point, some proponents of inflation have suggested that there can be no solution. We should cease bothering to look for one. Instead, we should simply take inflation and the multiverse as fact and accept the notion that the features of the observable universe are accidental: consequences of living in this particular region of the multiverse rather than another.

To me, the accidental universe idea is scientifically meaningless because it explains nothing and predicts nothing. Also, it misses the most salient fact we have learned about large-scale structure of the universe: its extraordinary simplicity when averaged over large scales. In order to explain the one simple universe we can see, the inflationary multiverse and accidental universe hypotheses posit an infinite variety of universes with arbitrary amounts of complexity that we cannot see. Variations on the accidental universe, such as those employing the anthropic principle, do nothing to help the situation.

Scientific ideas should be simple, explanatory, predictive. The inflationary multiverse as currently understood appears to have none of those properties.

These concerns and more, and the fact that we have made no progress in 30 years in addressing them, are what have made me skeptical about the inflationary picture.

The irony is that our understanding of inflation has changed dramatically. We no longer believe that inflation makes any of those predictions so that none of the magnificent observations made over the last 30 years can be viewed as supporting inflation.

Since 1983, it has become clear that inflation is very flexible (parameters can be adjusted to give any result) and generically leads to a multiverse consisting of patches in which any outcome is possible. Imagine a scientific theory that was designed to explain and predict but ends up allowing literally any conceivable possibility without any rule about what is more likely. What good is it? It rules out nothing and can never be put to a real test.

Horgan: Do you think the BICEP2 observations may still turn out to support inflation?

Steinhardt: As just explained, it is not possible to find evidence to support or refute inflation because an inflationary multiverse includes patches with cosmic gravitational waves and without them.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cr ... -conceive/
Inflation was proposed more than 35 years ago, among others, by Paul Steinhardt. But Steinhardt has become one of the theory’s most fervent critics. In a recent article in Scientific American, Steinhardt together with Anna Ijjas and Avi Loeb, don’t hold back. Most cosmologists, they claim, are uncritical believers:

“[T]he cosmology community has not taken a cold, honest look at the big bang inflationary theory or paid significant attention to critics who question whether inflation happened. Rather cosmologists appear to accept at face value the proponents’ assertion that we must believe the inflationary theory because it offers the only simple explanation of the observed features of the universe.”

And it's even worse, they argue, inflation is not even a scientific theory:

“inflationary cosmology, as we currently understand it, cannot be evaluated using the scientific method.”

The problem with inflation isn’t the idea per se, but the overproduction of useless inflationary models. There are literally hundreds of these models, and they are – as the philosophers say – severely underdetermined. This means if one extrapolates the models that fit current data to regimes which are still untested, the result is ambiguous. Different models lead to very different predictions for not-yet made observations. Presently, it is therefore utterly pointless to twiddle with the details of inflation because there are literally infinitely many models that one can think up, giving rise to infinitely many different "predictions."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... 527e5cb45e
And, to actually get closer to the OP, can you honestly say that the description in Genesis of how the world was formed is a robust and accurate one?
I would say the idea that the universe had a beginning and was designed will continue to outlast any other competing explanation. So, yes, I would say it is a robust and accurate one.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1373

Post by Diagoras »

otseng wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:17 pm
Diagoras wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:54 pm Others would say, “refine the original model based on the results of experiment.” It’s pretty much standard for many physical sciences.
Not so for cosmology.
Are you claiming cosmologists never perform experiments or make observations?

otseng wrote:As for refining inflationary theory, even one of the originators of cosmic inflation theory, Paul Steinhardt, has abandoned inflation theory.
So? Matt Dillahunty abandoned Christianity, so what can we infer from that?

otseng wrote:
I wrote: And, to actually get closer to the OP, can you honestly say that the description in Genesis of how the world was formed is a robust and accurate one?
I would say the idea that the universe had a beginning and was designed will continue to outlast any other competing explanation. So, yes, I would say it is a robust and accurate one.
<bolding mine>

You have answered a very different question. Please address the specific point about Genesis, or I’ll have to conclude that your response is a ‘straw man’.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1374

Post by brunumb »

kjw47 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:18 pm I would say the problem is, its using altered versions of Gods written word that is causing the confusion in a major way. Altered versions cannot be trusted, they were altered by satans will to mislead.
Which is/are the unaltered version(s) that we should be putting our trust in?
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1375

Post by otseng »

Diagoras wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:13 pm Are you claiming cosmologists never perform experiments or make observations?
Where did I claim that? The only thing I've claimed is the multiplicity of ad hoc proposals leads to a theory being suspect. And as I pointed out...

"Instead, they have produced so many variants of models that they can now “predict” pretty much anything that might be measured in the foreseeable future."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... 527e5cb45e
So? Matt Dillahunty abandoned Christianity, so what can we infer from that?
If a leading scientist of cosmology, who originated inflation theory, recognizes the problems with the theory and abandons it, then so should non-experts.

As for Matt Dillahunty, what does he have to do with cosmology?
otseng wrote:
And, to actually get closer to the OP, can you honestly say that the description in Genesis of how the world was formed is a robust and accurate one?
I would say the idea that the universe had a beginning and was designed will continue to outlast any other competing explanation. So, yes, I would say it is a robust and accurate one.
You have answered a very different question. Please address the specific point about Genesis, or I’ll have to conclude that your response is a ‘straw man’.
It is described in the Bible.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

We can infer from this there was a beginning to the universe and God designed the universe. These two arguments are very old - the Cosmological argument and the Teleological argument. And we will be going deeper into those later as we continue to discuss cosmology.

Is there a "scientific" description in Genesis? No. But, the Bible does make claims about reality which align with what we observe, including the area of cosmology.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1376

Post by William »

[Replying to otseng in post #1375]
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

We can infer from this there was a beginning to the universe and God designed the universe. These two arguments are very old - the Cosmological argument and the Teleological argument. And we will be going deeper into those later as we continue to discuss cosmology.

Is there a "scientific" description in Genesis? No. But, the Bible does make claims about reality which align with what we observe, including the area of cosmology.
This is what I attempted to point out in the thread "The Effect of Sound and The Universe", because the bible not only say's that GOD created but that it was the voice of GOD which made it so.

GOD said it - and it was so. Genesis 1: 3

Biblically there appears to be no science involved and it would be more believable if there was, but the bible is not a scientific manual. It is a collection of manuscripts dealing with human behavior in relation to the GOD-mind.

However, if human science discovers that it is sound which formulates things which altogether make up what we call The Universe/Creation, then we would be able to understand the connection where the science was biblically mentioned in a poetical manner and without further ado to describing particulars.

On its own, Genesis 1: 3 could be argued as a simple lucky guess.

Even so, from my position [being neither theist or nontheist, re the question of GOD] there is ample to work with in those 10 words making up that succinct sentence.

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." [480] [Evidence]

[Four Zero Eight = 173]
And [Idea]
God [Data]
said, [Seed]
Let [Feedback]
there [Light]
be
light: [El Shaddai]
and
there
was
light. [Loving-kindness]

Conflating the bible with science to the point where the demand to prove the bible through science manifests...is psychologically interesting - but in and of itself - appears to be an unhelpful demand re the question of GOD.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1377

Post by kjw47 »

[Replying to brunumb in post #1374]


God inspired his personal name in the OT nearly 6800 places. Because it is his will for that name to be there is why. It was called the tetragramoton= YHWH--Men replaced it with GOD or LORD all capitols. They had no right. It was done by satans will to mislead. As well in the NT where the OT is quoted and the name belongs about 200 spots. So close to 7000 spots-YHWH name was removed. It has caused much confusion as to who God is.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1378

Post by brunumb »

kjw47 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:57 pm [Replying to brunumb in post #1374]


God inspired his personal name in the OT nearly 6800 places. Because it is his will for that name to be there is why. It was called the tetragramoton= YHWH--Men replaced it with GOD or LORD all capitols. They had no right. It was done by satans will to mislead. As well in the NT where the OT is quoted and the name belongs about 200 spots. So close to 7000 spots-YHWH name was removed. It has caused much confusion as to who God is.
Which is/are the unaltered version(s) that we should be putting our trust in?
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Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1379

Post by William »

kjw47 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:57 pm [Replying to brunumb in post #1374]


God inspired his personal name in the OT nearly 6800 places. Because it is his will for that name to be there is why. It was called the tetragramoton= YHWH--Men replaced it with GOD or LORD all capitols. They had no right. It was done by satans will to mislead. As well in the NT where the OT is quoted and the name belongs about 200 spots. So close to 7000 spots-YHWH name was removed. It has caused much confusion as to who God is.
I hesitate to go so far as you have gone here.

"I Am That I Am" [YHWH] allows everyone the right of passage to decide for themselves as to who this entity is, to them.

So if some say "LORD" or "GOD" or "Murdering Psychopath" or "Invisible Sky Daddy" et al - there is no requirement to accuse Satan of misleading them in their deciding for themselves.

God is to everyone, whatever they choose God to being, through their world view.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1380

Post by kjw47 »

William wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:56 pm
kjw47 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:57 pm [Replying to brunumb in post #1374]


God inspired his personal name in the OT nearly 6800 places. Because it is his will for that name to be there is why. It was called the tetragramoton= YHWH--Men replaced it with GOD or LORD all capitols. They had no right. It was done by satans will to mislead. As well in the NT where the OT is quoted and the name belongs about 200 spots. So close to 7000 spots-YHWH name was removed. It has caused much confusion as to who God is.
I hesitate to go so far as you have gone here.

"I Am That I Am" [YHWH] allows everyone the right of passage to decide for themselves as to who this entity is, to them.

So if some say "LORD" or "GOD" or "Murdering Psychopath" or "Invisible Sky Daddy" et al - there is no requirement to accuse Satan of misleading them in their deciding for themselves.

God is to everyone, whatever they choose God to being, through their world view.

The true God= Father only accepts being worshipped in spirit and truth-John 4:22-24)
The Hebrew scholars, who know the Hebrew language better than any say, there is no i am that i am in their Hebrew written OT. I will be what i will be is the correct translating of that passage.

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