Their witness does not agree

[Athetotheist]

"Now the chief priests and all the council sought testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but found none. For many bore false witness against him, but their testimonies did not agree." (Mark 14:55-56)

If the testimony of those witnesses was to be rejected because it didn't agree, how can anyone be blamed for rejecting the resurrection accounts in the gospels for the same reason?

[Athetotheist]

Let's assume for a minute, however, that you're right. ... what was John trying to tell us with that verse?

That Jesus appeared before Pilate on the morning of the 14th, the day before the first day of the festival of cakes (loaves).

So you assert that the Passover lambs were slaughtered on the 13th?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 161 by Athetotheist]

No, why should you ask that ? The Passover lamb would have been eaten on Nisan 14 in the evening.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to post 161 by Athetotheist]

No, why should you ask that ? The Passover lamb would have been eaten on Nisan 14 in the evening.

Then how do you have Jesus taken to Pilate on the morning of the day the sacrifices were killed [the 14th] when the synoptics say that he wasn't arrested until the night following the day the sacrifices were killed?

Unless you're saying that he died on the 15th?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 161 by Athetotheist]

No, why should you ask that ? The Passover lamb would have been eaten on Nisan 14 in the evening.

Then how do you have Jesus taken to Pilate on the morning of the day the sacrifices were killed [the 14th] when the synoptics say that he wasn't arrested until the night following the day the sacrifices were killed?

Unless you're saying that he died on the 15th?

I won't insult your intelligence by asking you if you know that the Jewish day started in the evening. I presumed if you feel comfortable participating in such a technical debate you have this very basic piece of information about Jewish custom. I will however stand corrected on this, so if you did not know I apologise for presuming you did.


My bad,


JW

[FWI]

"Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight.....Then they shall eat the flesh on that night.....You shall let none of it remain until morning...." (Exodus 12:6, 8, 10)

I was hoping that someone would bring this up. It seems that you were inspired to do so, because of how quickly you responded! Or, of course, it was just a coincidence…:D

Firstly, the Authorized Versions of the O.T. doesn't use the term "twilight" in Exodus 12:6 or any other place in the Torah…The Hebrew word used is ereb (H6153), which is defined as: evening, night and sunset. The Hebrew word for twilight is nesheph (H5399) and is defined as: dark, dawning of day and dawning of the night. Which, would be a twelve hour period beginning at sunrise and ending at sunset. Thus, it is between these parameters that the 1st century Israelites killed the lambs. Then, they ate the Passover meal on the beginning of the 15th of Nisan. Where, 2 Chronicles 35:1-14 gives us an illustration of the changes that had occurred, as compared to the first Passover service. This was required because the priests were now the ones who would kill the Passover lambs (for the most part), where the responsibility was taken away from the head of a household, because of the requirement of sanctification. It was also required that the sacrifices could only be performed in the temple! The place where God put His name! And, nowhere else…Thus, the logistics of these new requirements demanded adjustments.

Yet, the first Passover was unique…Where, God commanded that the Israelites needed to put some blood (of the lambs/goats) onto the entrance to their homes, because this would protect the household from the 10th plague. I say this is unique, because it wasn't required afterwards (except symbolically). Because, the death angel did not reappear again, on any future Passover (Ex. 12:12-13)!

So, why the Passover? It is a remembrance of what God did for the Israelites and this remembering was to last for seven days…

How could Jesus be crucified before the eating of the Passover meal when the Passover lamb had to be eaten on the night immediately following the day it was killed and the synoptics place the killing of the Passover lamb on the day before the crucifixion?

Well, that's because the Christ didn't eat the paschal meal, he and his apostles ate a meal on the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread (the beginning of the 14th day of Nisan), which is called the first day of the paschal (Passover) seven day feast. And, was explained in post 153 and can also be reviewed in Exodus 12…

[Athetotheist]

"Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight.....Then they shall eat the flesh on that night.....You shall let none of it remain until morning...." (Exodus 12:6, 8, 10)

I was hoping that someone would bring this up. It seems that you were inspired to do so, because of how quickly you responded! Or, of course, it was just a coincidence…:D

Firstly, the Authorized Versions of the O.T. doesn't use the term "twilight" in Exodus 12:6 or any other place in the Torah…The Hebrew word used is ereb (H6153), which is defined as: evening, night and sunset. The Hebrew word for twilight is nesheph (H5399) and is defined as: dark, dawning of day and dawning of the night. Which, would be a twelve hour period beginning at sunrise and ending at sunset. Thus, it is between these parameters that the 1st century Israelites killed the lambs. Then, they ate the Passover meal on the beginning of the 15th of Nisan. Where, 2 Chronicles 35:1-14 gives us an illustration of the changes that had occurred, as compared to the first Passover service. This was required because the priests were now the ones who would kill the Passover lambs (for the most part), where the responsibility was taken away from the head of a household, because of the requirement of sanctification. It was also required that the sacrifices could only be performed in the temple! The place where God put His name! And, nowhere else…Thus, the logistics of these new requirements demanded adjustments.

Yet, the first Passover was unique…Where, God commanded that the Israelites needed to put some blood (of the lambs/goats) onto the entrance to their homes, because this would protect the household from the 10th plague. I say this is unique, because it wasn't required afterwards (except symbolically). Because, the death angel did not reappear again, on any future Passover (Ex. 12:12-13)!

So, why the Passover? It is a remembrance of what God did for the Israelites and this remembering was to last for seven days…

How could Jesus be crucified before the eating of the Passover meal when the Passover lamb had to be eaten on the night immediately following the day it was killed and the synoptics place the killing of the Passover lamb on the day before the crucifixion?

Well, that's because the Christ didn't eat the paschal meal, he and his apostles ate a meal on the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread (the beginning of the 14th day of Nisan), which is called the first day of the paschal (Passover) seven day feast. And, was explained in post 153 and can also be reviewed in Exodus 12…

You state in post 153 that Jesus and the apostles ate their meal at the beginning of Nisan 14, which would have been just after sundown.

[Athetotheist]

"Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight.....Then they shall eat the flesh on that night.....You shall let none of it remain until morning...." (Exodus 12:6, 8, 10)

I was hoping that someone would bring this up. It seems that you were inspired to do so, because of how quickly you responded! Or, of course, it was just a coincidence…:D

Firstly, the Authorized Versions of the O.T. doesn't use the term "twilight" in Exodus 12:6 or any other place in the Torah…The Hebrew word used is ereb (H6153), which is defined as: evening, night and sunset. The Hebrew word for twilight is nesheph (H5399) and is defined as: dark, dawning of day and dawning of the night. Which, would be a twelve hour period beginning at sunrise and ending at sunset. Thus, it is between these parameters that the 1st century Israelites killed the lambs. Then, they ate the Passover meal on the beginning of the 15th of Nisan. Where, 2 Chronicles 35:1-14 gives us an illustration of the changes that had occurred, as compared to the first Passover service. This was required because the priests were now the ones who would kill the Passover lambs (for the most part), where the responsibility was taken away from the head of a household, because of the requirement of sanctification. It was also required that the sacrifices could only be performed in the temple! The place where God put His name! And, nowhere else…Thus, the logistics of these new requirements demanded adjustments.

Yet, the first Passover was unique…Where, God commanded that the Israelites needed to put some blood (of the lambs/goats) onto the entrance to their homes, because this would protect the household from the 10th plague. I say this is unique, because it wasn't required afterwards (except symbolically). Because, the death angel did not reappear again, on any future Passover (Ex. 12:12-13)!

So, why the Passover? It is a remembrance of what God did for the Israelites and this remembering was to last for seven days…

How could Jesus be crucified before the eating of the Passover meal when the Passover lamb had to be eaten on the night immediately following the day it was killed and the synoptics place the killing of the Passover lamb on the day before the crucifixion?

Well, that's because the Christ didn't eat the paschal meal, he and his apostles ate a meal on the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread (the beginning of the 14th day of Nisan), which is called the first day of the paschal (Passover) seven day feast. And, was explained in post 153 and can also be reviewed in Exodus 12…

You confirm that the first day of Unleavened Bread and the day of the killing of the Passover lamb were the same day, and that the day was Nisan 14. However, you seem to keep overlooking the synoptics' other significant statement about Nisan 14: that it was also the day when Jesus sent his disciples to prepare the Passover for him to eat with them. If the sacrifice was killed on the 14th [between about 11:00 AM and 4:00 PM as you said in post 153] and was to be eaten that night, and Jesus sent his disciples out on the 14th to prepare a meal which he would eat with them that night, the only meal they could be preparing was the meal to be eaten on the night beginning the 15th, which you yourself identify as the meal of the paschal lamb. I don't see any way around that.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to post 161 by Athetotheist]

No, why should you ask that ? The Passover lamb would have been eaten on Nisan 14 in the evening.

Then how do you have Jesus taken to Pilate on the morning of the day the sacrifices were killed [the 14th] when the synoptics say that he wasn't arrested until the night following the day the sacrifices were killed?

Unless you're saying that he died on the 15th?

I won't insult your intelligence by asking you if you know that the Jewish day started in the evening. I presumed if you feel comfortable participating in such a technical debate you have this very basic piece of information about Jewish custom. I will however stand corrected on this, so if you did not know I apologise for presuming you did.


My bad,


JW

I am indeed aware that Jewish days begin at sunset, but I don't see an answer to the question here. For the sacrifice to be eaten on the 14th, it would have to be eaten before the sunset which began the 15th (for it to be eaten on the night beginning the 14th it would have to have been killed on the 13th, which you have dismissed).

This means that the 14th was the day the sacrifice was killed. But the synoptics say that the day the sacrifice was killed was the day Jesus sent the disciples to prepare the Passover for him. It seems problematic to have Jesus taken to Pilate on the morning of the day he sent the disciples to prepare their passover, which he would have to have done before he was arrested.

If I'm confused, is my confusion understandable?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 167 by Athetotheist]

WHEN WAS THE LAMB OF THE 14TH EATEN?

Exodus 12:6- 10: "You must care for it until the 14th day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it at twilight. [...] 8 “‘They must eat the meat on this night....10 You must not save any of it until morning - NWT

The Passover instructions were that the lamb was to be killed on the 14th and eaten "that night". The 14th began at sunset and continued through the night. The next morning was of course still the 14th (the morning of the 14th) but the meal had to be over by then. Logically then, the window for the meal was between sunset and the dawn of the 14th.

But the synoptics say that the day the sacrifice was killed was the day Jesus sent the disciples to prepare the Passover for him.

Emphasis MINE

Where does it say that? They all speak of "preparing for the Passover" (presumably finding the room, preparing it, seeing that everything needed was in place ect) and its likely all that would indeed have been on Nisan 13 (late morning or in the afternoon), but none speak about slaughtering the passover victim specifically, and if they followed the biblical mandate (which I think we can safely presume they did) they would not slaughter the animal until after sunset. If they did this they killed, prepared and ate the lamb all on the same day, ie the evening through night of the Nisan 14th.

.......======================= Nisan 13=========================>|| < ======== Nisan 14 ===============> .....
<---- "go and get the Passover ready..." ---- disciples prepare for passover--->|| SUNSET [slaughter/eat lamb ] ------ DAWN..

Late Morning ------------------------- Thursday 13th Nisan ------------- afternoon ------||[SUNSET]FRIDAY 14 OFFICIALLY BEGINS---->

JW

[Athetotheist]

But the synoptics say that the day the sacrifice was killed was the day Jesus sent the disciples to prepare the Passover for him.

Where does it say that?

"With that he sent forth two of his disciples" (Mark 14:13)

"He said: 'Go into the city'" (Matthew 26:18)

"....and he dispatched Peter and John" (Luke 22:8)

They all speak of "preparing for the Passover" (presumably finding the room, preparing it, seeing that everything needed was in place ect) and its likely all that would indeed have been on Nisan 13 (late morning or in the afternoon)

....except that Jesus doesn't send them to do the preparing until Nisan 14:

"Now on the first day of unfermented cakes, when they customarily sacrificed the passover victim" (the 14th)....Mark 14:12

"The day of the unfermented cakes now arrived, on which the passover [victim] must be sacrificed" (the 14th)....Luke 22:7

(all quotations from the NWT)