What about Satan?

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:15 pm

Often, in these forums, we are debating whether or not prayer "works". This usually takes the form of the christians explaining away the fact that we can never seem to detect the influence of prayer. It's always "God doesn't do tests" or "God does what's best for you, not necessarily what you ask for" or "Sometimes god says no".

So let's try the opposition. Will Satan answer a prayer in an unambiguous fashion? If not, why not? Does Satan have any power in the world today? Does he have a will independant of YHWH?

We often hear from christians about Satan or demons influencing people, or people working for them. So it should be possible to interact with them in some way.

Is it possible to summon a demon? Can a person converse with Satan?

How about if I ask Satan to cause me to sin? For example, I do not drink alcohol. If I pray to Satan to make me an alcoholic, will he? If not, why not?

DanZ

RevJP · Post by **RevJP** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:26 am

Then my apologies, for I was certain you understood the events surrounding the fall of lucifer.

He was the most high angel in heaven, chief among those singing praises to God, his pride got the best of him and he questioned why he should be praising God when he himself was so glorious, he rose up against God in an effort to supplant him.

Consequenty, he and those angels that sided with him were cast out....

Long story short it is a battle of souls, God wants His creation to be with Him for eternity, satan wants to beat God.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:21 am

Long story short it is a battle of souls, God wants His creation to be with Him for eternity, satan wants to beat God.

There you go again. You say you can't speak for god or Satan, then you go around doing it.

Which gets me back to my main point again, if Satan wants to "beat god", why won't he help me to become more satanic? I would follow him in an instant if he would only make me a murderer, rapist, child molestor, etc. In fact, I would follow him if he would perform that trick of making me flip ten heads in a row. (Wait, I'll do it again now. Quick prayer to Satan and... head, tail, opps, no good.) Heck, I'd even follow him if he just showed up.

The only thing Satan will do is behave exactly like YHWH, and remain hidden, thus maintaining the abiguity about their existance.

Christians often tell us why YHWH does not make an appearance. But why should Satan do the same? If god wants to remain aloof and gain worship by faith, then Satan would do the opposite, rushing around the world screaming "Here I am, worship meeeeeee!" And since it would work very well, the only conclusion is that Satan and YHWH don't exist.

DanZ

RevJP · Post by **RevJP** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:30 am

Thank you for those completely impertinent remarks juliod.

I was really just providing what scriptures and jewish tradition, and christian tradition tell us about the fall of lucifer, for the benefit of bernee who assured me that the information was unknown.

If you choose to construct some tenuous, and rather silly argument that my relating of events described in scripture is really me speaking for satan, you are welcome to do so, but I feel it is rather rude of you to interject such nonsense into the discussion at hand.

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:16 am

RevJP wrote:Then my apologies, for I was certain you understood the events surrounding the fall of lucifer.

He was the most high angel in heaven, chief among those singing praises to God, his pride got the best of him and he questioned why he should be praising God when he himself was so glorious, he rose up against God in an effort to supplant him.

Consequenty, he and those angels that sided with him were cast out....

Long story short it is a battle of souls, God wants His creation to be with Him for eternity, satan wants to beat God.

Rev, I was pretty much aware of the mythology of the fall of satan - I did attend a RC school in the 50's and they were pretty big on satan.

My question was...Why does satan want (my) eternal separation from god? What's in it for him?

Would I be correct then in assuming that Satan wants my soul only to satisfy his pride. To show to god that he has the power to sway his (god's) creations away from him.

Given that for a True Christian (TM) the window of salvation is pretty small (i.e. very specific beliefs required to make the cut) - I reckon that Satan is on a bit of a winner here. He is going to collect (has already collected?) many more souls than god. Does this mean he is more powerful than god? Or just a better judge of character? I reckon he could be justifyably proud of his efforts.

RevJP · Post by **RevJP** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:43 am

Scripture does tell us that narrow is the way and few will tread the path to Heaven and the road to hell is wide and highly populated.

I assume your latest comment/question is leading to the suggestion that since satan has a lot of souls he must've 'won' the contest already, you will likely ask 'what does he still want more?"

I cannot answer for I am not him, I cannot speak for him as I have stated before, nor do I have the ability to understand the depth and breadth of his pride, or hate for God, or anything he may or may not think or feel.

BTW, I wonder why you would lead me to believe you had a lack of knowledge of something you already knew, and then perpetuate that misdirection even when I had called you on it? For what purpose would you intentionally mislead me?

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:53 pm

For what purpose would you intentionally mislead me?

He didn't mislead you, anymore than I was rude to you.

I think you fail to see how you appear to us in this thread. You make firm statements like "God wants this and Satan wants that..." But when we ask you an even slightly difficult question you declaim "I don't know about that, I don't speak for god or Satan, etc etc."

It's a real problem...

DanZ

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:40 pm

In Ancient Greece a demon was supposed to be a lesser deity, or just any spiritual being in general. It was called a "daimon" and it could also be an inner voice, like the one which warned Socrates about unwise or unjust behavior. "Satan" means "enemy" or "opponent" in Hebrew. Which reminds me a lot of Manicheism and a bit of Robert Mitchum's clasped hands in "The Night of the Hunter". Satan is presented as the flipside of God. But at the same time we are told he is no match for God. He's supposed to be the loser, although artists and poets from Dante and Milton to the Rolling Stones have managed to make him look almost attractive, sort of like a "Rebel Without a Chasuble" or something. But I digress...

If Satan is like a negative of God, everything that God is not, and if God listens to prayers, then Satan most certainly should pay no attention. So I wouldn't worry about the possibility of decent atheists becoming demon possesed and going out on a killing spree. Unless, of course, that person already has psychotic tendencies which could be worsened by a series of things (no need for demonic forces).

I don't think it is fair to say that just by not believing in God someone is already working for Satan. If ye shall know them by their fruits, I know a bunch of atheists who are working for the forces of good instead. And what about those religious terrorists whose faith is solid as a rock?

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:05 pm

If Satan is like a negative of God, everything that God is not, and if God listens to prayers, then Satan most certainly should pay no attention.

But then if god ignores my prayers (as he does) then should Satan be willing and ready to answer them?

DanZ

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:37 am

RevJP wrote:Scripture does tell us that narrow is the way and few will tread the path to Heaven and the road to hell is wide and highly populated.

The 'scripture' says a lot of things that when taken as what they are, metaphorical allusions to egoic attachment, make sense. They make no sense when applied to mythic belief systems.

RevJP wrote: BTW, I wonder why you would lead me to believe you had a lack of knowledge of something you already knew, and then perpetuate that misdirection even when I had called you on it? For what purpose would you intentionally mislead me?

I did not mislead you, which is why I repeated the question in my reply to you. You did not answer it. What you gave was a 'history' lesson of satan's becoming, with the hint that his reward had something to do with pride.

And you are correct - satan has won the soul collection derby hand's down. Why would god let him do that?

RevJP · Post by **RevJP** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:15 am

You would have to ask God.