What is God?

[Danmark]

What is God?
Is God not beyond definition?
Why do we argue about the existence of that which is beyond definition?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

If we know that God is 'beyond definition' then we have negative knowledge, which is itself real knowledge.

This doctrine goes back to Plato and continues on to the present age. The fact the philosophy has been able to agree on numerous aspects of God is pretty striking if the entity is completely made up. Is there another entity whose existence is so polemical?

[Dave Skummie]

[Replying to post 2 by Kenisaw]

Hello Kenisaw. I would like to comment on your global warming if I could. I am a skeptic when it comes to human has been the cause of global warming for a few reasons. One of these reasons is volcanoes, When we see a massive irruption and we look at the total amount of CO2, acids and just pure debris being flung into our atmosphere and calculate the total volume we find that it is more than man kind produces in a lifetime. Please understand this only exist in volcanoes like Mount Saint Helen or Krakatoa. They need to be on a massive scale. Other thing is in the late 40s to the mid-70s was the US and others great Industrial Age. The pollution that was released into the atmosphere was far greater than what we see today and looked at the annual temperatures the temperatures actually we're dropping. Another reason is the politics of this. We know throughout history and even with our current politics the politicians have no problem spreading skepticism to make their point. Another reason is I'm a true believer in the butterfly affect in so many different subjects. Some scientist believe that situations can occur and that the effects or not felt for many years later possibly hundreds. We know so little of what actually drives our planet temperature and the atmosphere surrounding it. I'm not saying temperatures are not rising, I just find it horrible that if any person questions what is the percentage of man-made versus natural they are regarded as a horrible person. That is where the political influence comes in. The scientist would never suggest such a thing. To give you a simple example is there are so many people that claim sea levels are rising and many people feel that is a fact today. There are many people that Live on the coastal areas and they see the watermarks and they don't see any rising. Some scientists say that if the waters of the oceans rise in the smallest degree the expansion of the molecules of the water will show a rise. This would explain why some see it in parts of the world and some don't. I think one of the biggest problems in global warming is how the political system has affected the funding of the scientific community in that if you do not agree with our view you do not have access to this huge funding machine. That is quite scary and may produce a biased opinion. Man Made vs Natural should be the main concern. Dave

[Willum]

[Replying to post 22 by Dave Skummie]

Dave, it is so refreshing to see concerned people with brains.
If DCR will indulge the segue, I'll give you GW in a nut shell:

A. The Earth Hadley Cells carry heat from the Equator to the poles. This is influenced by the Coriolis effect, and so on.
B. Water from the ice caps and poles, melts just like ice in your soda, cooling the oceans, absorbing unbelievable amounts of heat, in fact ALL the heat carried to it by A. above.
C. Ice melts releasing 333 J/g, sea level rise is 6cm, you can look up the area of the oceans, and again, through simple math, see how much the energy-state of the Earth has increased in 40 years or so.

1. Everyday the world releases, ~4,500 nuclear weapons worth of waste heat from the burning of oil. That's a simple math exercise, barrels of oil, etc., consumed in a day, times the energy released. This has an effect.
2. 94% of this energy is released in the Northern Hemisphere, where the land masses are.
3. 90% of the measurable climate change: The melting of the ice caps, occurs at the North Pole and other N. Hemisphere glaciers.

Fact: CO2 has not increased enough to have a measurable effect, it is always presented in terms of change with respect to itself. 280/400 ppm. But that change is really 120/1,000,000. (400-280 in parts per million.)
Fact: Water vapour is 40x more active than CO2 in the IR, and is competitive with it. Water vapor has increased 800 ppm, yet we aren't experiencing a runaway greenhouse effect.
Imagine: It is 100 degrees average one Summer, 90 degrees average the next. The temperature does not carry momentum, therefore air temperature is a useless measure of climate change, whereas melted ice provides and excellent metric.

[KingandPriest]

What is God?
Is God not beyond definition?
Why do we argue about the existence of that which is beyond definition?

Hello all,

These questions equate to asking what is the value of infinity. We somewhat understand the concept of infinity, but there is no way to mathematically calculate or arrive at a resolute integer infinity.

So to, because we are created in the image and likeness of God, we humans can begin to understand the concept of the Eternal One who was, who is and is to come, but we have a difficult time trying to put this same being in the box of a specific integer type definition.

There is no number which can be used to explain infinity.
There is no exact word or which would perfectly define God. We understand what has been revealed to us.

So in my opinion, the initial question is flawed due to the lack of acknowledgement of our language and knowledge as human beings.

[marco]

These questions equate to asking what is the value of infinity. We somewhat understand the concept of infinity, but there is no way to mathematically calculate or arrive at a resolute integer infinity.

Infinity is represented by the symbol ∞ but it is not something like an integer, something that has a specific value. Rather it refers to unboundedness. We can happily use infinity in our mathematics problems and even use it to calculate the area under the normal curve to be unity. If we supposed ∞ was the final value, what would we do about ∞ +1 ?

We can loosely speak of a being we call God and throw different qualities at him. But whereas infinity has practical value, God doesn't do anything. We can't put God into an equation or make him a limit and arrive at some useful solution..... or maybe we can, and maybe the clever Bible writers did exactly that. So God is a simple way of making sense of the unknown. Gradually he is replaced by fact but there are vast areas where he's still needed as an explanation.

So God is an explanation...... for now.

[KingandPriest]

These questions equate to asking what is the value of infinity. We somewhat understand the concept of infinity, but there is no way to mathematically calculate or arrive at a resolute integer infinity.

Infinity is represented by the symbol ∞ but it is not something like an integer, something that has a specific value. Rather it refers to unboundedness. We can happily use infinity in our mathematics problems and even use it to calculate the area under the normal curve to be unity. If we supposed ∞ was the final value, what would we do about ∞ +1 ?

We can loosely speak of a being we call God and throw different qualities at him. But whereas infinity has practical value, God doesn't do anything. We can't put God into an equation or make him a limit and arrive at some useful solution..... or maybe we can, and maybe the clever Bible writers did exactly that. So God is a simple way of making sense of the unknown. Gradually he is replaced by fact but there are vast areas where he's still needed as an explanation.

So God is an explanation...... for now.

Hello Marco,

There is a difference between how something is defined mathematically and the sometimes abstract definitions words have in common language.

A definition is a statement of the meaning of a term (a word, phrase, or other set of symbols).[1] Definitions can be classified into two large categories, intensional definitions (which try to give the essence of a term) and extensional definitions (which proceed by listing the objects that a term describes).[2] Another important category of definitions is the class of ostensive definitions, which convey the meaning of a term by pointing out examples. A term may have many different senses and multiple meanings, and thus require multiple definitions.[3][a]

In mathematics, a definition is used to give a precise meaning to a new term, instead of describing a pre-existing term. Definitions and axioms are the basis on which all of mathematics is constructed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition

Infinity is one such term or symbol which actually does not give a precise value/meaning but instead uses extensional concepts which are useful for performing other calculations. As you implied, ∞ +1 is beyond comprehension, so we utilize the symbol to convey meaning by pointing out examples.

Likewise, when a person attempts to define God with simple or strict rules/words, we have a hard time. At best, we can convey the meaning of a term "God"by pointing out examples. Then we are left to examine the examples and make a choice for oneself.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 26 by KingandPriest]

Since you are using Wiki as justification, I need to ask the question; do you have any experience or education in mathematics?

There are ways of dealing with infinity, do you know the term l'Hospital's rule? Sequences and series? How infinite sums yield finite results?

We need to know your background to understand what you are saying. If Steven Hawking were making these statements it would mean something very different then if a eight year old were making them...

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 27 by Willum]

The truth does not depend on a person's credentials. If I were to write 1+1=2, I do not need a degree in combinatorics (which Stephen Hawking does not have btw) or any other branch of mathematics to state a known truth.

I used wiki to provide an explanation for how we define something, and how we typically define something in mathematics. Infinity is not something that can be precisely defined (with a specific value) but the concept is understood.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 28 by KingandPriest]

But if you claim the infinity of a sine function is the same as the infinity of an exponential function, or the convergence of +/- 1/x is the same as 1/x, I can then understand that you don't have a quantitative understanding of infinity, and can speak to you in context.

Infinity + 1 means to very different things... in these context.

[marco]

There is a difference between how something is defined mathematically and the sometimes abstract definitions words have in common language.

Well luckily I have a foot in both philology and mathematics, so I'm not confused. When you wrote:

"There is no number which can be used to explain infinity" it seems clear you're speaking mathematically. Mathematicians have a good idea what they mean when they talk of infinity.

However, your linking God with infinity is not without merit. Definition and infinity both stem from the Latin word, finis: end, limit. To define is to enclose in limits; infinite means having no limitations. Thus to "define" God is strictly to place God within finite boundaries and I suppose we do this in our treatment of God in the Old Testament; he is unmistakeably human, with human emotions, capable of anger, mind-change, sadness and even jealousy. The god we've invented in the OT is possibly a parody, a poor imitation and I think that's what you are saying.

Ignore Yahweh, however, and instead of having some infinite concept we have nothing at all. There is close relation between infinity and nothingness. Something travelling at infinite speed would seem not to be travelling at all since it remains in the same place, returning instantaneously to where it started. Whether God is nothing or everything is a question for late night debaters. His involvement in human affairs seems zero.

In his depressing 'Being and Nothingness', Sartre wrote: "“Nothingness lies coiled in the heart of being - like a worm.� But God magically gives man purpose as well as fear and, as Voltaire said, "Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer." And many have invented him.
God is then an invention.