Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[POI]

I hope we get some attempts from Christians to address your query. Forgive my pessimism, but I won't hold my breath.

Neither will I...

So I guess the follow up question might instead be... Why aren't the many Christians here, who follow along in this forum, eager to demonstrate that their God exists? I happily admit that if I new such a God DID exist, I would have some "soul searching" to do.

But in the mean time, I instead ponder mere hypotheticals from time to time. Meaning, IF such a God exists, then why.... this/that/other...?

[historia]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s) . . .

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

Please explain what do you think would be sufficient demonstration?

"Sufficient demonstration"? I guess <personal revelation> would suffice.

Wait a second. If a personal revelation from God is what it would take to demonstrate to you that God exists, then what are you asking the Christians here to do?

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s) . . .

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

Please explain what do you think would be sufficient demonstration?

"Sufficient demonstration"? I guess <personal revelation> would suffice.

Wait a second. If a personal revelation from God is what it would take to demonstrate to you that God exists, then what are you asking the Christians here to do?

Great question. One of which I already answered in post 18. Personal revelation might be one way of demonstration... And how could Christians facilitate such a request, you ask? Well, The earnest Christian could pray for God to contact me. Does this God answer earnest prayer requests?

Otherwise, what'za got? Can you prove the Christian God, at least, exists?

[AndrewIsrael]

Christianity is incomplete. Islam is the truth:

John 14, 15, and 16 has to be talking about the coming of prophet Muhammad and not the Holy Spirit. Why? Because the Trinity contradicts the Old Testament:

Numbers 23:19

Deuteronomy 4:35

Deuteronomy 4:39

Deuteronomy 6:4

Deuteronomy 32:39

Jeremiah 3:1

Hosea 13:4

Hosea 11:9

Isaiah 40:25

Isaiah 42:8

Isaiah 43:10-11

Isaiah 44:6-8

Isaiah 45:5-6

Isaiah 45:18

Isaiah 46:9

Malachi 3:6

[POI]

Christianity is incomplete. Islam is the truth:

John 14, 15, and 16 has to be talking about the coming of prophet Muhammad and not the Holy Spirit. Why? Because the Trinity contradicts the Old Testament:

Numbers 23:19

Deuteronomy 4:35

Deuteronomy 4:39

Deuteronomy 6:4

Deuteronomy 32:39

Jeremiah 3:1

Hosea 13:4

Hosea 11:9

Isaiah 40:25

Isaiah 42:8

Isaiah 43:10-11

Isaiah 44:6-8

Isaiah 45:5-6

Isaiah 45:18

Isaiah 46:9

Malachi 3:6

How can I know the "Islamic flavor of God" truly exists?

[POI]

But it is faith.

"Faith" can be applied to virtually any unfounded assertion. But, as they say... Where there is evidence, there is then no use for faith.

[Tcg]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Bible
Historicity
Symbolism
Results
Wisdom
Psychology
Mental health
Spiritual health

Then the real closers are when you examine your own beliefs (gods). That makes the choice easy.

I prefer being conscious of my God rather than unconscious.

But it is faith.

That's quite the shotgun approach. How about you pick just one of these and show how it demonstrates the existence of the Christian God. Of course, your bottom line reveals that you don't think any of them do. If they did neither you nor anyone else would need to rely on faith.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

I rather hoped the Believers would know better than to appeal to Faith, but it seems not. i rather hoped we might avoid the Jesus - brainwash into the Faith, but it seems not. But This is the odd side to side step of theist apologetics so as to dodge the bullet. Like a non specific 'Creator' becomes the god of the Bible by assumption, not evidence (the truth of the Bible being assumed) evidence backs up the faith, or Faith selects the evidence or dismisses it when it bites the Faith in the ankle. But we get the appeal to personal revelation, which means nothing. Faith in other religions and even in politics, cults, and personal preferences are equally strong and become religious-cults (and haven't we seen a swathe of that recently). But enough of waffle; mental experiences of any god is evidence of nothing but human imagination; appeal to the Bible no longer works as, if we didn't already have good reason to doubt its' reliability, I trust that we soon will.

And there's the final wabble:- Christian apologists shift from using the evidence to validate the Faith, and when the evidence (Bible) comes into question, Faith is used to prop it up. It really does. On the 'sliding scale of probability' (the 'knowledge' that validates one theory or the other) the Bible - critic thinks in terms of what is more probable - that a star travelled in front of the magi, was tethered to the Herodian horse -rail while they talked to Herod, and then hovered over the House in Bethlehem to show which one it was is a credible story? Or that Matthew made the whole silly story up? But the Believer will revert to faithbased denial (you can't prove 100% it didn't happen - though I haven's actually seen it put that way) or it could be true in some garbled or metaphorical way (which I have) which is really the propping up of the more improbable hypothesis with Faith.

The buy - in to the cult is vital. Just as someone can be turned from a questioner to an enabler because they are personally invested, the deconvert, once informed about the evidence, can't be converted again. The 'conversions' I have seen have all been for bad reasons, Peter Hitchens for political reasons, the desire to believe foisted on himself with Hellthreat, which any rational person should have realised makes no sense. But - hey what does 'sense' matter when one has bought into Faith? Rachel Slick however deconverted by 'Really reading the Bible'. The more she tried to prove it was true to doubters, the more she realised it couldn't be.

Anthony Flew, of course the poster -boy of Theism. High profile atheist converted to God -belief. Yep. he did - for reasons of compelling evidence. ID in fact - the Irreducible Complexity of Behe's Creationism. It shows that an atheist, given compelling evidence, will change their mind. It is the Christian rather who reverts to the ken Ham dictum 'I have Faith. Nothing - no evidence - would ever change my mind'. We knew that.

Flew jumped too soon. He accepted IC on first sight. He didn't become a Christian, mind. He became a Theist but a non - religious one. As a Deist he was still on the non - religious side. He died before IC was debunked by science, and in a court of Law which ruled that IC was not science but Creationism. I remember we atheists thought: 'is that going to be valid for ID? We waited for the scientific response. Flew didn't. He swallowed the lie at face value, but after all, he was a philosopher, not a scientist, and philosophy too often thinks it can do the job of science with Mind Experiments and so it comes a cropper, like Flew.

It was the same with NDEs. One convert (so we are told) expected that we (Doubters) swallow the claims of NDEs at face value. They got exceeding strident when we (doubters said: "Wait". Then of course NDEs became criticised and, in turn, NOT the evidence for a heaven (let alone Jesusgod) that was claimed.

Sorry to go on,. but this business of using evidence to support the faith and using Faith to support the evidence is a basic of Bible apologetics.

[wannabe]

No one can prove God exists.
However, God can prove himself. If that is what you really desire.

If you want to find Jesus - simply look.
He's not denying his presence - you are.
How does science find its evidence for the sake of conclusion?
They dig, explore, examine, discover.
So apparently the opposing side to science = Jesus.(so some think)
So , dig, explore, examine, discover - look for Jesus, and before you find him he will find you (that is if it is Jesus you are actually looking for and not some thing of your own expectation.)
This works, otherwise your an agnostic.

If its proof you want, ask Jesus for it, in whatever way you feel respectfully addresses the subject of his validity, truth, and reality.
You will find Jesus is giving.
As in all relationships you have to be a little patient with each other.
Try this:
"Jesus, ... (fill in the blanks) ... amen. (respect)
Done.

You don't need belief or faith.(They come later)
Just be earnest and patient.
God bless.

Also faith is that of : What has been promised and the ability to deliver.
Belief is of the entity and what is ascribed to it.

[POI]

No one can prove God exists.
However, God can prove himself. If that is what you really desire.

If you want to find Jesus - simply look.

I have and still do now (for decades and counting). I have and done so, so much so, that I have even also resorted to the asking of others, in intercessory prayer, to summon Him on my behalf.

At this point, I'm now left with the following options:

1). This claimed God does not really exist
2). God is ignoring my requests
3). I'm not trying hard enough
4). I'm too stupid to see that He has already tried to prove Himself to me
5). 'Evil forces' are blocking the request(s)

Using Occam's Razor, which option is most logical? Hint hint, option 1)?

Option 2) defies many Bible claims
Option 3) seems unreasonable, as I am still here asking others for help
Option 4) seems unreasonable, as humans of all IQ's claim 'god(s)' speak to them
Option 5) seems unreasonable, as even if other 'forces' could block the request, why block some and not others?

I'm sure you and I could conjure up additional alternative options as well... BUT, again, applying Occam's Razor, option 1) likely continues to prevail.

He's not denying his presence - you are.

Since you can so easily dish out assertions, allow me to now rebuttal. Nope! I am denying nothing. And even IF I was, is God not powerful enough to demonstrate His existence to me in a way I could no longer deny Him? Or are such exchanges only reserved for certain individuals, like "Sal of Tarsus" for starters?

dig, explore, examine, discover - look for Jesus, and before you find him he will find you (that is if it is Jesus you are actually looking for and not some thing of your own expectation.)
This works, otherwise your an agnostic.

If its proof you want, ask Jesus for it, in whatever way you feel respectfully addresses the subject of his validity, truth, and reality.
You will find Jesus is giving.

Tried, in earnest, for decades. Heck, I'm still trying now.... Option 1)?