If you were Satan....

[Athetotheist]

I remember a TV preacher once asking his broadcast audience, "If you were Satan....." I don't remember the rest of the question, but I seem to remember that he was talking about prophecy and arguing that Satan was up to some diabolical mischief ("If you were Satan, isn't that what you would do?").

A lot of detail in Christian scripture about what is to happen before Jesus returns is tied to the activity of "Satan". The appearance of the "antichrist", in particular, is supposed to be part of Satan's last gambit before he goes down to utter defeat.

Since it was asked of me how I would react if I were Satan, I think it's fair for me to answer. I know that "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to William in post #239

That is why the questions;
Q: If Satan is sitting back - can he still achieve what was prophesied or...

Q: ...Would Satan have to relinquish the prophesized power part along with the prophesized prestige part?

Those questions make no sense. "Satan" wouldn't be trying to "achieve" what was prophesied. And if he were concerned about prestige, he would get that by coming out on top.

What makes you think that Satan has any interest in defeating his self? By invalidating his self in order to invalidate a prophesy, sounds unrealistic. By invalidating his self in order to invalidate a prophesy, sounds unrealistic. To effectively become a nobody - one of the crowd - even less than that, because Famous humans exist - it goes against the very character as portrayed in the biblical script.

You mean it invalidates the biblical script?

You have provided no particular convincing reason as to why the Satan character would wish to melt into obscurity. "To thwart the plans of Father YHWH" and have to go quietly into the night in order to do so, is unconvincing as nobody would even realize that Satan had achieved such a thing, because he would have to remain anonymous.

The invalidation of prophecy would itself be the achievement. Remember my comment to the effect that false prophecies don't come from true gods? If the prophecies about "Satan" turned out to be false, who would the true god be [in a Christian context]?

As I mentioned in a previous post, something may have occurred which meant the order [for the Son to return] was not given in an epoch where such an event wouldn't have been seen as an Extraterrestrial Intervention by human beings.
Since that opportunity has passed, the reason for not giving the order may have been because something happened which convinced Father YHWH that Humans would survive without an intervention and therefore Satan's roleplay was not required anymore.

That itself would falsify prophecy.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #227

Who knows what the real reason was for Satans exile from heaven.
Perhaps the Trinity run a heavenly holy kids porn ring. When Satan wanted to stop this he found himself thrown out of heaven. Can you prove it wasnt so?

Umm......

......you're just making stuff up. Admit it. You're out of ideas, so you're just letting any ludicrously nonsensical notion fly into your head and pecking it down on your keyboard because you've come to the realization that you have nothing whatsoever of any constructive sort to contribute to this discussion and have given up even any pretense of addressing the matter seriously, relying instead on taking it to an utterly mind-boggling level of bufoonish pseudo-discourse with not even a veneer of intellectual or philosophical validity in order to continue saying something.

You cannot earnestly question my position as a serious debater?! Say that you didnt mean it, please!?

All I did was defending the "Sheriff Satan" theory!

For:
Bible officially was inspired/written by a deity!
Bible commands genocide on unbelieving nations!
Bible commands murder on homosexualists and witches!
Bible never but never dares to criticize Pedophilians!
There are bible verses that even encourage and command Pedophilians to begin their good work!
Priests and witnesses of above deity again and again are proven to be convicted Pedophilians!

That suggests a deity who is a Pedophilian himself!

One who supposedly loves kid porn that much is supposed to sell some for the money in it (remember gods greediness when it comes to temple taxes or luxus suites for his servant Benny Hinn), if he has the mea ns to do it. An omnipotent being is seldom short of means.

Therefore Satan could very well got kicked himself out of heaven, cause he wanted no part in a Kid Porn Ring!

Logical reasoning!

Evangelicals, grasping at straws, try delusionally to construct Satanic Kiddie Porn Rings!
Though, not even Satans trinitarial arch-enemy accuses Satan to be a Pedophilian!

Time for a thread:
"What was the real reason for Satans exile from Heaven ?"

Care to make one ?

[The Nice Centurion]

The invalidation of prophecy would itself be the achievement. Remember my comment to the effect that false prophecies don't come from true gods? If the prophecies about "Satan" turned out to be false, who would the true god be [in a Christian context]?

Mangler Argument Fallacy (which is assuming too much unproven things about unproven beings, if you must know).
There is no coherent evidence that a false prophecy turns a true god into a false one.

If you tell a lie, does that end your humanity?

Or better; The world didnt end in 2012 as the Mayan Calendar predicted. But did this proven fact instantly set an end to your faith in the Mayan gods?

No?

I supposed so!

So why should failed biblical prophecy be a big deal for Jehovah ???

[William]

William: Q: If Satan is sitting back - can he still achieve what was prophesied or...

Q: ...Would Satan have to relinquish the prophesized power part along with the prophesized prestige part?
[Replying to Athetotheist in post #241]

Those questions make no sense.

They are questions related to the OP - questions asking for clarity re the OP.

"Satan" wouldn't be trying to "achieve" what was prophesied.

Therefore he would have to relinquish the power part along with the prestige part.

If he were concerned about prestige, he would get that by coming out on top.

Who would give him that reward for this supposed 'coming out on top'? What do you even mean by that?

You mean it invalidates the biblical script?

Not what I said. How would that invalidate the script?

The invalidation of prophecy would itself be the achievement. Remember my comment to the effect that false prophecies don't come from true gods? If the prophecies about "Satan" turned out to be false, who would the true god be [in a Christian context]?

If the Father YHWH is representative of 'the true GOD' how would the non-return of the Son signify that Father YHWH was NOT 'the true GOD', since it is up to Father YHWH alone to make the call as to when Jesus should return.

As I mentioned in a previous post, something may have occurred which meant the order [for the Son to return] was not given in an epoch where such an event wouldn't have been seen as an Extraterrestrial Intervention by human beings.
Since that opportunity has passed, the reason for not giving the order may have been because something happened which convinced Father YHWH that Humans would survive without an intervention and therefore Satan's roleplay was not required anymore.

That itself would falsify prophecy.

It would not matter, if the intended job gets done. It would not make the words attributed to the Son that 'no one but The Father knows the hour of his return', invalid.

It would simply make the words of whomever is attributed to composing prophesy around the supposed events heralding the return, to being false.
Something the Son is also attributing as having warned folk to watch out for...hearing rumors etc...

This in itself would not mean that the Characters involved therefore have to be imaginary - not real - do not exist.

In that scenario I gave, the important thing would be that Human beings worked out their problems without the requirement for any 'heavenly' intervention.

It would not matter that any 'heavenly characters' were acknowledged or that human beings remained unaware of any intervention which may have occurred behind the scenes to assist them in success as a Specie.

Even Christians would be forgiven for believing in false prophecies, because the world of doom and gloom didn't eventuate and folk just got on with life and sorted out all the worlds problems.

Of course, this scenario depends upon humans actually being able to achieve this for themselves...and that is still under serious question...

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to William in post #244]
Thank you for listing some serious problematic that comes with the OP question.
Only one with serious Cognitive Dissonance would not get it now.

[JehovahsWitness]

I am reminded of discussing this idea with Jehovah's Witnesses near 40 years ago - who disagreed with my assessment re the signature - and I realized the reason why they disagreed was because it went against the beliefs they have that they do not engage with the system of the antichrist - at least not to the point where they are 'owned' by it.

Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe the "Antichrist" to represent the political, religious or financial aspects of the world system so there is no reason we would object in principle to any electronic signature. We do not seek to extract ourselves from all aspect of modern living.

The antichrist in our opinion does not amount to the secular system of things.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #246]
Sure, this is also problematic for our OP; Its a Miracle to find two churches who exegete endtime prophecy exactly the same.

Left Behind novel series just choose the most voluminous version it could find, so to make more profit with as much books as possible.

Mormons have no Jesus milennial reign

Jehovahs witnesses have not even a personal antichrist.

And so on.

What version exactly is Satan to thwart?
If he sends no antichrist, he will play right into the hands of Jehovahs Witnesses.

Harold Camping was the evangelical who predicted Jesus Second coming for 2011 and two more dates.
viewtopic.php?t=35835

And he needed no antichrist, no tribulation, nada . . .
Camping went straight for Jesus fliyng down from heaven to New York Plaza.

How is Satan to thwart THIS by inactivity? For this scenario he isnt needed. Not even as a helpful hand.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #242

Bible officially was inspired/written by a deity!
Bible commands genocide on unbelieving nations!
Bible commands murder on homosexualists and witches!
Bible never but never dares to criticize Pedophilians!
There are bible verses that even encourage and command Pedophilians to begin their good work!
Priests and witnesses of above deity again and again are proven to be convicted Pedophilians!

That suggests a deity who is a Pedophilian himself!

One who supposedly loves kid porn that much is supposed to sell some for the money in it (remember gods greediness when it comes to temple taxes or luxus suites for his servant Benny Hinn), if he has the mea ns to do it. An omnipotent being is seldom short of means.

Therefore Satan could very well got kicked himself out of heaven, cause he wanted no part in a Kid Porn Ring!

Logical reasoning!

Your "logical reasoning" has no bearing on why "Satan" couldn't invalidate Christian prophecy by simply not playing his role in it, and is a sorry attempt at distracting attention from that issue.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to William in post #244

Who would give him that reward for this supposed 'coming out on top'?

All who recognized that prophecy wasn't being fulfilled?

If the Father YHWH is representative of 'the true GOD' how would the non-return of the Son signify that Father YHWH was NOT 'the true GOD', since it is up to Father YHWH alone to make the call as to when Jesus should return.

You begin that question with a conditional "if". The return of Jesus is prophesied in Christian text, so its failure to come about would mean that the prophecy was false.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #248]

Your "logical reasoning" has no bearing on why "Satan" couldn't invalidate Christian prophecy by simply not playing his role in it, and is a sorry attempt at distracting attention from that issue.

Your error seems to be, thinking that Satan proving prophecy wrong and Satan winning is automatically the same.

If Satan is concerned about little kids not to get molested by the Holy Trinity, he must take some ACTION against that!
In this scenario "winning" is secondary for him and seeing prophecy unfullfilled is only a lovable side effect. His prime goal is to stop the centurys ongoing christian child abuse which always makes headlines!