How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2491

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #2488
The idea of a cup used to catch Jesus's blood on the cross is not supported by any Biblical text. But the shroud containing his blood would make sense.
And the presumption that any "blood" on the cloth must be that of Jesus is certainly convenient.
Of course, scholars do not believe there is any historical basis to Jesus ever visiting Britain.
Well, how much credence do you give to the saga of Jesus the globetrotter who visited not only Britain but also France, India and even......Japan???

https://bib.irr.org/did-jesus-visit-oth ... s-of-world

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2492

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 6:04 pm Until you present an argument for the absence of distortion over the head of the image, you've presented no evidence which needs refuting.
This is a non-sequitor statement. Explanation of imaging is not required by me in order for skeptics to refute all the evidence I've produced so far to argue it is authentic. Nobody really knows how the image got there, but we still have both pro-fake and pro-authentic proponents. Even people who claim the shroud is medieval cannot fully explain how the image was formed. Also, by requesting that I explain why there's an absence of imaging over the head, you are assuming the imaging mechanism must be something like a bas-relief, which I don't even claim. It's not that I need to explain why it's not there, but you need to explain why it must be an imaging technique that would cause an image over the head.
Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 6:06 pm And the presumption that any "blood" on the cloth must be that of Jesus is certainly convenient.
Not only convenient, but it's the most parsimonious explanation.
Of course, scholars do not believe there is any historical basis to Jesus ever visiting Britain.
Well, how much credence do you give to the saga of Jesus the globetrotter who visited not only Britain but also France, India and even......Japan???
Why do I need to give credence to something I don't either claim or believe in? And where did I ever claim Jesus has ever been in Britain? To be clear, I don't believe Jesus or Joseph of Arimathea has ever been in Britain.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2493

Post by otseng »

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _cat40.jpg

Joseph of Arimathea is not really mentioned much in the Bible.

There are four passages:

[Mat 27:57-60 KJV] 57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: 58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. 59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

[Mar 15:43-46 KJV] 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling [unto him] the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew [it] of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

[Luk 23:50-53 KJV] 50 And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor; [and he was] a good man, and a just: 51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) [he was] of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

[Jhn 19:38-42 KJV] 38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave [him] leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. 39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound [weight]. 40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. 42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation [day]; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

But, as we've seen in the Grail legend and the Jerusalem hymn, Joseph of Arimathea comes up often outside of the Bible.
Since the 2nd century, a mass of legendary detail has accumulated around the figure of Joseph of Arimathea in addition to the New Testament references. Joseph is referenced in apocryphal and non-canonical accounts such as the Acts of Pilate and the medieval Gospel of Nicodemus. Joseph is mentioned in the works of early church historians such as Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian, and Eusebius, who added details not found in the canonical accounts. Francis Gigot, writing in the Catholic Encyclopedia, states that "the additional details which are found concerning him in the apocryphal Acta Pilati ("Acts of Pilate"), are unworthy of credence." The Narrative of Joseph of Arimathea, a medieval work, is even purportedly written by him directly, although it adds more details on the robbers at Jesus's crucifixion than Joseph himself. He also appears in the ancient non-canonical text the Gospel of Peter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Arimathea
Joseph is accorded a long history in later literature. In the apocryphal Gospel of Peter (2nd century), he is a friend of Jesus and of Pilate. In the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus (or Acts of Pilate; 4th/5th century), Jews imprison Joseph after Jesus’ burial, but he is released by the risen Lord, thus becoming the first witness of the Resurrection. In Robert de Boron’s verse romance Joseph d’Arimathie (c. 1200), he is entrusted with the Holy Grail (cup) of the Last Supper. A mid-13th-century interpolation relates that Joseph went to Glastonbury (in Somerset, England), of which he is patron saint, as head of 12 missionaries dispatched there by St. Philip the Apostle. In Sir Thomas Malory’s Le Morte Darthur (15th century), when Galahad receives the vision of the Grail, he sees Joseph standing at the altar dressed as a bishop.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Sa ... -Arimathea

In the Gospel of Peter:
22 Then the sun shone forth, and it was found to be the ninth 23 hour. And the Jews rejoiced, and gave his body unto Joseph to bury it, because he had beheld all the good things which 24 he did. And he took the Lord and washed him and wrapped him in linen and brought him unto his own sepulchre, which is called the Garden of Joseph.
http://gnosis.org/library/gospete.htm

Gospel of Nicodemus:
12 And 1 behold a certain man of Arimathæa, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus, but not openly so, for fear of the Jews, came to the governor, and entreated the governor that he would give him leave to take away the body of Jesus from the cross.

13 And the governor gave him leave.

14 And Nicodemus came, bringing with him a mixture of myrrh and aloes about a hundred pound weight; and they took down Jesus from the cross with tears, and bound him with linen cloths with spices, according to the custom of burying among the Jews,

15 And placed him in a new tomb, which Joseph had built, and caused to be cut out of a rock, in which never any man had been put; and they rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/lbob/lbob10.htm

Britain in particular had many legends about Joseph of Arimathea.
Many legends about the arrival of Christianity in Britain abounded during the Middle Ages.

Eusebius of Caesaria, one of the earliest and most comprehensive of church historians, wrote of Christ's disciples in Demonstratio Evangelica, saying that "some have crossed the Ocean and reached the Isles of Britain." Hilary of Poitiers also wrote that the Apostles had built churches and that the Gospel had passed into Britain. The writings of Pseudo-Hippolytus include a list of the seventy disciples whom Jesus sent forth in Luke 10, one of which is Aristobulus of Romans 16:10, called "bishop of Britain".

When Joseph set his walking staff on the ground to sleep, it miraculously took root, leafed out, and blossomed as the "Glastonbury Thorn". The retelling of such miracles encouraged the pilgrim trade at Glastonbury until the abbey was dissolved in 1539, during the English Reformation.

Another legend, as recorded in Flores Historiarum, is that Joseph is in fact the Wandering Jew, a man cursed by Jesus to walk the Earth until the Second Coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Arimathea

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2494

Post by JoeyKnothead »

One of y'all do me a favor and let me know if any of the following conditions are met:

The image is confirmed to be that of Jesus.

The blood is confirmed to be that of Jesus.

Thanks :wave:
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2495

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #2492
It's not that I need to explain why it's not there, but you need to explain why it must be an imaging technique that would cause an image over the head.
That shifting of the burden of proof won't work. If some extraordinary force is supposed to have imprinted an image where the material contacted a body, that image should logically appear everywhere the material would have contacted that body. The absence of that feature in a highly conspicuous place is what makes the image look bas-relief-ish.

And you seem to be in retreat now; first you kept promising to provide an explanation later-later-later, and now you're claiming that you don't have to provide one at all.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2496

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:08 am [Replying to otseng in post #2492
It's not that I need to explain why it's not there, but you need to explain why it must be an imaging technique that would cause an image over the head.
That shifting of the burden of proof won't work. If some extraordinary force is supposed to have imprinted an image where the material contacted a body, that image should logically appear everywhere the material would have contacted that body. The absence of that feature in a highly conspicuous place is what makes the image look bas-relief-ish.

And you seem to be in retreat now; first you kept promising to provide an explanation later-later-later, and now you're claiming that you don't have to provide one at all.
Being in a retreat is a ridiculous accusation. I've been providing evidence and rational argumentation for hundreds of pages in this thread. Yet it is the skeptics that have continually dropped out of this thread.

Like I've said multiple times, we'll deep dive into imaging after the provenance. I've only had to repeatedly state I'll get to it later since you've been repeatedly asking for it.

The burden of proof is on the person who makes a claim. I have not made any claim so far on how the imaging actually occurred. Whereas you have made the claim that there must be imaging on top of the head. So, if you cannot demonstrate that there must be imaging on the top of the head, then it's just another baseless unsupported assertion.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2497

Post by otseng »

Image
The Mandylion being hidden - Cathedral Church of the Redeemer, Kremlin, Moscow, 17th century

After the reign of King Abgar V, the city reverted to paganism. To keep the image safe, it was hidden inside a gate wall.
The later legend of the image recounts that because the successors of Abgar reverted to paganism, the bishop placed the miraculous image inside a wall, and setting a burning lamp before the image, he sealed them up behind a tile; that the image was later found again, after a vision, on the very night of the Persian invasion, and that not only had it miraculously reproduced itself on the tile, but the same lamp was still burning before it; further, that the bishop of Edessa used a fire into which oil flowing from the image was poured to destroy the Persians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_of_Edessa
However, as the Synaxarium reports, Abgar’s grandson, who had returned to the worship of the
idols, wanted to destroy the precious relic. In order to save the Mandylion, the Bishop of Edessa,
having been warned in a dream by an angel, had the rounded hollow secretly bricked up with a tile
and a little burning lamp placed before it.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlpolveraripaper.pdf

It remained hidden until around 525 when it was rediscovered after a flood damaged the gate wall.
The image itself is said to have resurfaced in 525, during a flood of the Daisan, a tributary stream of the Euphrates that passed by Edessa. This flood is mentioned in the writings of the court historian Procopius of Caesarea. In the course of the reconstruction work, a cloth bearing the facial features of a man was discovered hidden in the wall above one of the gates of Edessa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_of_Edessa

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2498

Post by otseng »

After the time the Edessa image was rediscovered in 525, art depictions of Jesus standardized to the image on the TS. Before this, Jesus was depicted in various ways, commonly without a beard and Roman-like.

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... acidia.jpg

The Good Shepherd mosaic in the Mausoleum of Galla Placidia in Ravenna, Italy dates to the early to mid 5th century.
The Good Shepherd mosaic in the Mausoleum of Galla Placidia is not only one of the oldest depictions of Jesus, but one of the most beautiful and well-preserved. The Mausoleum is a UNESCO World Heritage Site and features other mosaic works of art. The Good Shepherd is found over the north entrance and shows Jesus in a more regal form than other early good shepherd paintings.
https://www.oldest.org/artliterature/jesus-paintings/
The Mausoleum of Galla Placidia is a Late Antique Roman building in Ravenna, Italy, built between 425 and 450.

The figure of the Good Shepherd and pastoral scenes were familiar to Christian thought; depictions of a young man, the criophorus, bearing on his shoulders a sheep were known in the ancient world from the 6th century BC and was adopted from the late 3rd century AD into Christian art, especially in funerary contexts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mausoleum ... a_Placidia



Image

The frescoes found in the catacombs of St. Domitilla in Rome, Italy dates to early 5th century.
The ancient catacombs of St. Domitilla sprawl for more than 10 miles (17 kilometers) in a labyrinth of tunnels beneath Rome and contain numerous tombs, many belonging to the city's elite.

Now, using a technique called laser cleaning, in which lasers are used to remove centuries of grime, researchers have uncovered elaborate frescoes in two sections of the catacombs: the burial chamber used by a grain purchaser (sometimes referred to in scholarly literature as a baker) and the "introductio," which shows a "a personal presentation of the dead to Christ," said Barbara Mazzei, an archaeologist with the Pontifical Commission for Sacred Archaeology, the organization that unveiled the newly visible frescoes at the end of May.

A bucolic scene with a shepherd and another with Christ on a throne between two groups of apostles were also revealed in the catacombs.
https://www.livescience.com/59424-paint ... combs.html

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _close.jpg

Painting of the Good Shepherd in the Catacombs of St. Callixtus in Rome, Italy dates to mid 3rd century.
“The Good Shepherd” is believed to be one of the oldest existing paintings of Jesus. The painting shows a young beardless Jesus collecting sheep, which was one of the most common images of Jesus at the time. This particular painting is one of the best preserved and was found in the Catacombs of San Callisto.
https://www.oldest.org/artliterature/jesus-paintings/

Image

Christ Raising Lazarus: Catacomb of the Giordani in Rome, 3rd century
When Christ wasn’t disguised as a Shepherd or as a Greek god, followers often showed him in the act of his biblical miracles. Far from being as inflammatory as the resurrection, showing Jesus’ miracles was a relatively safe way to praise Christ’s divinity, if this clandestine art were ever to be discovered. That being said, the majority of these types of works are found only in the Post-Constantine era.
https://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/maf2219 ... tianity-2/


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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2499

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Snippings were snipped...
otseng wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:22 am ...Yet it is the skeptics that have continually dropped out of this thread.
This skeptic "dropped out of this thread" after realizing you were not going to, or continue to put off offering some means to confirm the following...

The image on the shroud is that of Jesus.
The blood on the shroud is that of Jesus.

If only for me, unless and until you can do that, you're just typing in a bunch of letters arranged in the particular pattern it takes to make words out of em.
Like I've said multiple times, we'll deep dive into imaging after the provenance.
Will that provenance be supported by documents, fingerprints, or some such method that produces a reliable record? He asked, rhetorically.
I've only had to repeatedly state I'll get to it later since you've been repeatedly asking for it.
This doesn't really do your position too proud, considering to answer such challenges might well put the argument to rest.
The burden of proof is on the person who makes a claim.
...
Then here we go...

You'll not be able to confirm the image on the shroud is that of Jesus.

You'll not be able to confirm the blood on the shroud is that of Jesus.

You'll not be able to confirm a reliable, unbroken chain of custody for the shroud.
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2500

Post by otseng »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:46 am This skeptic "dropped out of this thread" after realizing you were not going to, or continue to put off offering some means to confirm the following...

The image on the shroud is that of Jesus.
The blood on the shroud is that of Jesus.
I already presented my concluding argument it is Jesus of Nazareth:
viewtopic.php?p=1120776#p1120776

If you have any rational counterarguments to my arguments, please present it with counter evidence instead of just making assertions. Really the only other position is it is a medieval fake. And I have yet to see any evidence produced to say it is a fake that has not been refuted. Like you constantly demand from Christians, please produce your evidence, otherwise it's just more ranting.

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