Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

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rikuoamero
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Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #1

Post by rikuoamero »

In a thread in the Science sub forum, J P Cusick said the following
I do not claim that Einstein was some Prophet or Priest of God - certainly not - as I see him as a spineless and immoral jerk - and the reason he did so well in science is because he gained huge insight from the scriptures - and that was smart of him to do.
This has me thinking. Apparently, Einstein read Scripture, and had a high level of understanding, more so than your average person. Why, according to J P, he attributed his theory of relativity to Genesis (please ignore the fact that not once in his life did Einstein ever come close to even saying that).
So...we have a smart man, who has the holy scriptures of Judaeo/Christianity, and who has a high level of understanding of them...and yet, he is spineless, and an immoral jerk (so far, J P has not said WHY he says that).
So...are Scriptures actually necessary for morality? Looks like it's not. Surely J P will agree with me in that they seem to be entirely superfluous.
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Re: Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #31

Post by Kenisaw »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 11 by rikuoamero]

God himself sets the standard of what is "good" in the absolute, all we can speak about is being "good enough"; good enough to merit being viewed as a normal human and not a pyscopath, probably. Spiritually "good" or righteous in God's eyes probably not.
For example, taking your kids outside the city walls and stoning them to death for disobedience. That's a standard of good that the Bible god set...

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Re: Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #32

Post by alexxcJRO »

JP Cusick wrote:
I do not accept that hateful interpretation of psychopaths, and yet you demand that interpretation to base your own denunciation of God as if God is to blame for your own interpretation of reality. See the reference I gave = Destined or not?
My view is that in the evil society and system of the USA (as the example) is what creates the sociopaths and the psychopaths because we push the sinful ignorance onto everyone. "
We are moving in circles. We have been over this. :-s :shock: :?

Recent information shows otherwise. There are small children who show signs of psychopaty and lack of empathy(problems with mirror neurons).

"For some children, programs like PATH try to teach them what they already know " what other people feel. They know that because the mirror neurons in their own brains respond to the emotions of others so they feel their pain. Feeling someone elses pain makes hurting others painful to you.
Other children dont feel that. They have few mirror neurons and the pain, empathy, and fear centers in the amygdala are stunted. "
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... paths-chil...

Samantha shows sign of psychopaty and was not abused:

"From the start, Samantha seemed a willful child, in tyrannical need of attention. But what toddler isnt? Her biological mother had been forced to give her up because shed lost her job and home and couldnt provide for her four children, but there was no evidence of abuse. According to documentation from the state of Texas, Samantha met all her cognitive, emotional, and physical milestones. She had no learning disabilities, no emotional scars, no signs of ADHD or autism.
But even at a very young age, Samantha had a mean streak. When she was about 20 months old, living with foster parents in Texas, she clashed with a boy in day care. The caretaker soothed them both; problem solved. Later that day Samantha, who was already potty trained, walked over to where the boy was playing, pulled down her pants, and peed on him. She knew exactly what she was doing, Jen says. There was an ability to wait until an opportune moment to exact her revenge on someone.
When Samantha got a little older, she would pinch, trip, or push her siblings and smile if they cried. She would break into her sisters piggy bank and rip up all the bills. Once, when Samantha was 5, Jen scolded her for being mean to one of her siblings. Samantha walked upstairs to her parents bathroom and washed her mothers contact lenses down the drain. Her behavior wasnt impulsive, Jen says. It was very thoughtful, premeditated."
Researchers shy away from calling children psychopaths; the term carries too much stigma, and too much determinism. They prefer to describe children like Samantha as having callous and unemotional traits, shorthand for a cluster of characteristics and behaviors, including a lack of empathy, remorse, or guilt; shallow emotions; aggression and even cruelty; and a seeming indifference to punishment. Callous and unemotional children have no trouble hurting others to get what they want. If they do seem caring or empathetic, theyre probably trying to manipulate you.

Researchers believe that nearly 1 percent of children exhibit these traits, "
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... th/524502/

JP Cusick wrote: already told you that this is not a true nor accurate description, and yet you cling to it as the basis for your prejudice against God.
You are the one (1) demanding this of God to be "omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good being who wants that everyone to have equal, fair chance at salvation and who wants to have a personal relationship based on love, loyalty and respect with all humans."
The truth about God and His relationship to humanity is far more compelling than your own hostile interpretation.

Dude. What is wrong with you?!!!!! :))))))

I asked you : "Q: So does God want to have a personal relationship based on unconditional love and respect with all humans?(Yes/No question)"
And you said yes.

Again the Bible says God is perfect, omniscient and omnipotent not me. I am going along with the Bible.

Omnipotence:
Job 42:1-2
"Then Job answered the LORD and said, "I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. "
Luke 1:37
"For nothing will be impossible with God."

Omniscience:
Psalm 147:5 " Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.
Isaiah 46:10-11 " I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
Psalm 147:5
"Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite."

God is perfect:

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Psalm 18:30
"As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him."
Psalm 145:17
The Lord is righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #33

Post by JP Cusick »

Bust Nak wrote: How about no. If God exists, then he is to blame for absolutely everything. Then again, evil exist, therefore God doesn't, and hence isn't to blame for anything.
I will agree that we can blame God for everything, but if we ever want to ever do something about the problems then we must do that our self.

God created evil - so we still must live with it and deal with it.

If I tell a lie then that is me doing the lie, and if I want the lies to stop then I must stop myself.

If or when I hurt another person(s) then it is my own job to repent and to make my amends to that person and for my wrong(s).

God does accept the blame, but for us we need to stop the blame game and take our own responsibility for our own actions.

I really say that we need to be grateful to God for giving us this challenging life and this fantastic adventure, and we must simply play the game which is before us, and to give our best effort then we need to stop blaming God for what people do.
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Re: Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #34

Post by Kenisaw »

JP Cusick wrote:
Bust Nak wrote: How about no. If God exists, then he is to blame for absolutely everything. Then again, evil exist, therefore God doesn't, and hence isn't to blame for anything.
I will agree that we can blame God for everything, but if we ever want to ever do something about the problems then we must do that our self.

God created evil - so we still must live with it and deal with it.

If I tell a lie then that is me doing the lie, and if I want the lies to stop then I must stop myself.

If or when I hurt another person(s) then it is my own job to repent and to make my amends to that person and for my wrong(s).

God does accept the blame, but for us we need to stop the blame game and take our own responsibility for our own actions.

I really say that we need to be grateful to God for giving us this challenging life and this fantastic adventure, and we must simply play the game which is before us, and to give our best effort then we need to stop blaming God for what people do.
I agree with you on this. People definitely need to take responsibility for their own actions.

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Re: Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #35

Post by McCulloch »

[Replying to post 33 by JP Cusick]

I don't see how you need God or scripture for this point of view.

We could blame God for everything, but if we ever want to ever do something about the problems then we must do that ourselves.

Evil exists, so we still must live with it and deal with it.

If I tell a lie then that is me doing the lie, and if I want the lies to stop then I must stop myself.

If or when I hurt another person(s) then it is my own job to repent and to make my amends to that person and for my wrong(s).

We need to stop the blame game and take our own responsibility for our own actions.

We have a challenging life and this fantastic adventure, and we must simply play the game which is before us, and to give our best effort then we need to stop blaming God for what people do.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Re: Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #36

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 27 by alexxcJRO]
The lets stick to the op dodge card. Boring.
Since my OP does not specify that a God exists for the sake of argument...well, make of that what you will.
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I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #37

Post by JP Cusick »

McCulloch wrote: [Replying to post 33 by JP Cusick]
I don't see how you need God or scripture for this point of view.
You use the word "need" and I see that as self serving.

I want the truth, and the truth is power, and the reality of God is an absolute truth.

Does any person NEED to know about God or need to research scripture?

We need them to live a better life, we need them to comprehend life and reality, we need them to make a better world.

A person does not need them just to exist, but that is self debilitating or imposed debilitating.

From my experience the people who reject God and the scriptures are truly the people who need them the most.

There is a new saying that I embrace which goes like this:
Do not settle for less, start settling for more.
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Re: Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #38

Post by Bust Nak »

JP Cusick wrote: I will agree that we can blame God for everything, but if we ever want to ever do something about the problems then we must do that our self...

God does accept the blame, but for us we need to stop the blame game and take our own responsibility for our own actions.
It's quite refreshing to hear a theist affirm that.
I really say that we need to be grateful to God for giving us this challenging life and this fantastic adventure, and we must simply play the game which is before us, and to give our best effort then we need to stop blaming God for what people do.
You would have a point if the penalty for losing the game isn't so dire.

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Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #39

Post by KenRU »

iosua wrote: I would say that Scripture per se is not "necessary" for morality in any sense, but is rather a description of morality.
Imo, it is not a very good one, nor very consistent. Slavery, rape, worldwide destruction, brutality, killing babies. All condoned or endorsed by the OT god.
The moral or natural law is something that exists and has existed since before any Scripture was ever written. What IS necessary for morality is some kind of standard - an Absolute.
I disagree. Morality has changed and adapted as societies modernize.

Slavery was fine. Then it wasn't. Most view this a moral progress.
If there were no absolute standard of morality to appeal to, then we have no grounds for ever saying that one set of moral claims is superior to another, and no reason to ever debate moral claims as if we are getting closer to some "truth" because such truth wouldn't exist.
An absolute doesn't need to exist for one to wish and strive for the best.

And we have definitions to guide us. Moral is defined as "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character", and we know what each of those words mean.
But we do debate moral and ethical claims, we do feel that some moral claims are objectionable and some are better than others. We don't act as if everything were relative
We act as if it is subjective. We acknowledge that some moral norms change over time.
and just subject to convention or preference.
Sure we do.

Slavery.

Women's right to vote.

Societies stance on these issues (and many others) have changed. Therefore, society and people do act in a very subjective manner on this.
We make absolute moral claims (discrimination is bad, freedom is good, genocide is very bad)
To prove the point, I can envision an example where each of the above is not good.

Therefore, it is NOT absolute.
and we certainly feel that we have a right to say those things and impose them on our societies, because we think that things "ought" to be a certain way.
We think that things should be as best as they can. That does not mean there is an absolute.

Not "absolute" necessary for the words to work just fine.

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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg

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Re: Scripture not needed for morality or ethics apparently

Post #40

Post by JP Cusick »

KenRU wrote:
iosua wrote: We make absolute moral claims (discrimination is bad, freedom is good, genocide is very bad)
To prove the point, I can envision an example where each of the above is not good.

Therefore, it is NOT absolute.
You both are making the big mistake here by trying to judge "good from bad" which is using the poisoned knowledge from the garden of Eden, Genesis 2:16-17

It is a fact that judging "good from bad" is uncertain and confusing, it is arbitrary and capricious, and that poisoned knowledge is never quite accurate.

Morality needs to be judged by right and wrong, which is a completely different kind of judgment.

Truth is right and to lie is wrong - yes but either of those might be either good or bad depending on the circumstances - yes but to lie is always wrong and the truth is always right.

To judge morality as either "good or as bad" is to always be wrong.
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