Rules for thee, but not for Me....did Jesus really pay the price?

[Ozzy_O]

Some balk at the idea of eternal damnation. Is eternal hell fair? How can an eternity of punishment be just recompense for only one lifetime of human sin? Particularly if a person was generally decent, how is it fair that living apart from God for only 70 to 100 years results in eternity in hell?

A man sins; some say he is born in sin deserving of eternal hell.

God is fair and just, so He HAS TO insist on full payment for sin.

So a judge sentences you to life in prison as punishment for your crime; for reasons unknown, the judges son agrees to take your place and serve the sentence. Everyone is astonished and celebrates and worships the judge's son for doing such a wonderful deed.

However, after only three days in jail, the judge tells his son, that's ok, you can go, YOU don't have the serve the full sentence; however, had you or I gone to jail, we would rot and die in prison as a fair and just punishment for our crime.

Jesus knew he wasn't gonna stay dead forever and knew he wouldn't be tormented in hell for eternity.

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

[Shem Yoshi]

That is a great question, and the way I have heard eternity described by multiple sources, is that it is an instant in time, one NDE said when he died he knew what eternity was, opposed to living it one moment at a time he was one with eternity.

None who is able to report an NDE has died. Nothing they experience is evidence of life after death. Beyond that, nothing they report should be taken as a valid prediction of what the future will hold. Those who ingest LSD also have visions. None of these should be taken as authoritative information about reality.


Tcg

I completely disagree. Just because they haven't died completely does not invalidate the evidence and where it leads. Taking LSD might make you see trails and heighten sense of colors, NDE's people meet their dead loved one, experience an after life, meet God, have judgments on their lifes experiences, have OBE's. And they are medically dead most of the time.. We should let the evdience point us to where it leads. It is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are experiencing death like things.

"Death like things" are not death. NDEers do not experience an afterlife. They experience hallucinations which are the result of the extra DMT the body produces during trauma. The psychedelic effects of DMT are in fact quite similar to those of LSD and are quite clearly the cause of these experiences. This is in fact were the evidence leads.


Tcg

I'll let people judge for themselves I dont even feel like I need to have this debate.

You don't if you can't provide evidence of the afterlife that are stronger than discussing "death like things." Now, if you want to dispute the fact that our bodies produce DMT and that DMT is a strong hallucinogenic then perhaps you won't give up just yet.


Tcg

No I would rather not debate it right now, maybe some other time. But it is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are evidence of what happens at death

Not if you are claiming it as evidence of an afterlife. None of those who explain the hallucinations they experienced during their N(NEAR)DEs know what happens "at death" because they didn't experience death. They experienced the effects of trauma of their bodies and the production of DMT as a result of that trauma.



Tcg

You are saying it is unreasonable to believe they are experiencing what happens at death?

Just because it is "near" death does not invalidate the experience of an after life, or the experience of death.

[Miles]

Matthew 25:46
(WYC)
"And these shall go into everlasting torment; but the just men shall go into everlasting life.”

The word torment / torture has no place in Matthew 25:46 and almost all bible translations render the word "punishment"* . The word used in Matthew stems from "pruning" as in cutting off branches from a tree, the idea being these ones are forever "cut off" from life.

So what, the scholars and translators of the Bibles we read aren't telling us it's "pruning," but rather torment, pain, doom, or punishment for the simple reason that they didn't feel "pruning," as we understand the word, best conveys the intended meaning of ancient scribes.

The punishment for the incorrigibly wicked is death ; since the punishment will never be lifted/removed it is indeed an "everlasting punishment".

Yup, after death "all will go away to/into . . . . punishment." (the common phrasing of many bibles). Some Bibles have seen fit to describe this punishment as torment, doom or pain, while others play it safe and don't describe it at all. But in any case this punishment will be "forever," "eternal," or "everlasting." And ain't that nice! Thank you god for saddling some of us with an eternity of suffering---what else would eternal punishment amount to?--- for what amounts to a momentary slip in judgement. Some may call you loving, fair or just, but it certainly won't be me.

punishment
noun
pun·​ish·​ment ˈpə-nish-mənt 

1:
the act of punishing

2
a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

3:
severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Various Translations


ew International Version
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
.
.
.
Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

As well as:

WYC
And these shall go into everlasting torment; but the just men shall go into everlasting life.

GNV
And these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.

MSG
“Then those ‘goats’ will be herded to their eternal doom, but the ‘sheep’ to their eternal reward.”

NMB
And these shall go into everlasting pain, but the righteous into life eternal.

RGT
“And these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.”

.

[JehovahsWitness]

Some Bibles have seen fit to describe this punishment as [ ...] pain..

GNV
And these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.

NMB
And these shall go into everlasting pain, but the righteous into life eternal.

RGT
“And these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.”

If they do they are evidently taking liberty with the text since, according to VINES none of the Greek words for PAIN are in Matthew 25:46

... others play it safe and don't describe it at all.

That would be the wisest strategy, if the text contains no description of said "punishment" is not for the translator to assume the role of author.




JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Thank you god for saddling some of us with an eternity of suffering---what else would eternal punishment amount to?

Not all punishment involves ongoing suffering/pain. The death penalty, for example is surely a punishment, but I think it safe to assume most people don't believe a person continues to feel pain after they are executed. That doesn't stop the death penalty from being considered a "punishment".

Biblically the wicked are punished with eternal, never-ending, everlasting non-existence (aka death)




JW

[Tcg]

That is a great question, and the way I have heard eternity described by multiple sources, is that it is an instant in time, one NDE said when he died he knew what eternity was, opposed to living it one moment at a time he was one with eternity.

None who is able to report an NDE has died. Nothing they experience is evidence of life after death. Beyond that, nothing they report should be taken as a valid prediction of what the future will hold. Those who ingest LSD also have visions. None of these should be taken as authoritative information about reality.


Tcg

I completely disagree. Just because they haven't died completely does not invalidate the evidence and where it leads. Taking LSD might make you see trails and heighten sense of colors, NDE's people meet their dead loved one, experience an after life, meet God, have judgments on their lifes experiences, have OBE's. And they are medically dead most of the time.. We should let the evdience point us to where it leads. It is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are experiencing death like things.

"Death like things" are not death. NDEers do not experience an afterlife. They experience hallucinations which are the result of the extra DMT the body produces during trauma. The psychedelic effects of DMT are in fact quite similar to those of LSD and are quite clearly the cause of these experiences. This is in fact were the evidence leads.


Tcg

I'll let people judge for themselves I dont even feel like I need to have this debate.

You don't if you can't provide evidence of the afterlife that are stronger than discussing "death like things." Now, if you want to dispute the fact that our bodies produce DMT and that DMT is a strong hallucinogenic then perhaps you won't give up just yet.


Tcg

No I would rather not debate it right now, maybe some other time. But it is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are evidence of what happens at death

Not if you are claiming it as evidence of an afterlife. None of those who explain the hallucinations they experienced during their N(NEAR)DEs know what happens "at death" because they didn't experience death. They experienced the effects of trauma of their bodies and the production of DMT as a result of that trauma.



Tcg

You are saying it is unreasonable to believe they are experiencing what happens at death?

Just because it is "near" death does not invalidate the experience of an after life, or the experience of death.

Of course it does. They haven't died so they haven't experienced either an afterlife or death. It's not complicated at all. What they have experienced is DMT based hallucinations.


Tcg

[Miles]

Thank you god for saddling some of us with an eternity of suffering---what else would eternal punishment amount to?

Not all punishment involves ongoing suffering/pain. The death penalty, for example is surely a punishment, but I think it safe to assume most people don't believe a person continues to feel pain after they are executed. That doesn't stop the death penalty from being considered a "punishment".

Biblically the wicked are punished with eternal, never-ending, everlasting non-existence (aka death)

And those who weren't wicked don't die? Their vital functions don't permanently cease? (see below) C'mon. Nobody becomes a zombie no matter how good they may have been before dying.

FYI

death
noun
ˈdeth 
1
a: a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life

b: an instance of dying
a disease causing many deaths
lived there until her death

4: the state of being no longer alive : the state of being dead
source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary

.

[JehovahsWitness]

Biblically the wicked are punished with eternal, never-ending, everlasting non-existence (aka death)

And those who weren't wicked don't die?

Yes the do, but those judged as righteous do not die PERMANENTLY; Biblically speaking their death is not everlasting, it is temporary.

[Miles]

Biblically the wicked are punished with eternal, never-ending, everlasting non-existence (aka death)

And those who weren't wicked don't die?

Yes the do, but those judged as righteous do not die PERMANENTLY; Biblically speaking their death is not everlasting, it is temporary.

Not much of an incentive then to be good, is there.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

Biblically the wicked are punished with eternal, never-ending, everlasting non-existence (aka death)

And those who weren't wicked don't die?

Yes the do, but those judged as righteous do not die PERMANENTLY; Biblically speaking their death is not everlasting, it is temporary.

Not much of an incentive then to be good, is there.

.

For some, the desire to be "good" is incentive enough, regardless of whether there is a reward or not.



JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

DEATH , THE RANSOM SACRIFICE and ... EVERLASTING LIFE

[Miles]

Biblically the wicked are punished with eternal, never-ending, everlasting non-existence (aka death)

And those who weren't wicked don't die?

Yes the do, but those judged as righteous do not die PERMANENTLY; Biblically speaking their death is not everlasting, it is temporary.

Not much of an incentive then to be good, is there.

.

That depends ; for the righteous the prospect of being brouht back to life after having died and subsequently living forever is reward of great value.

One chance in 812,500? Either each winner is way beyond exceptional or there's some hanky-panky going on. And considering the nature of the game itself: Win A Date With God Or Suffer Everlasting Punishment I honestly feel it's within god's character to think up such an appalling challenge and therefore suspect the latter.

.