Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

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boatsnguitars
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Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

I am going to argue that there are few things more useless than Theology.

Definition I will be using:
Theology is the systematic study and interpretation of religious beliefs, doctrines, practices, and texts within the context of a specific religious tradition or belief system. Theology often seeks to understand and explain the nature of the divine, the moral and ethical principles associated with a particular religion, and the relationship between humanity and the divine. Theology can be seen as both an academic discipline and a form of spiritual reflection, depending on the context in which it is pursued.

Lack of Empirical Evidence: Theology is often criticized for its reliance on faith and lack of empirical evidence. Unlike fields like science, which are based on observable and testable phenomena, theology deals with abstract concepts and beliefs that cannot be proven or disproven. This lack of empirical evidence undercuts all validity of theological claims. There is not a single theological claim that can be made that either can't be proven true or false in any objective sense.

Incompatibility with Modern Scientific Methodology: The scientific method is a rigorous process that relies on empirical evidence, experimentation, and falsifiability. Theology, on the other hand, often operates outside the scope of these principles, making it incompatible with modern scientific methodology. This removes Theology from the most rigorous and useful tool we have as humans to determine truth from fiction - Theology thumbs it's nose at science and simply takes the ball and goes home. It refuses to even play the game other than by it's own rules - which change depending on the Theologian.

Fragmentation and Subjectivity: Theology is a highly fragmented field, with various religious traditions, denominations, and sects often having conflicting theological interpretations and beliefs. This fragmentation can lead to subjectivity, where theological conclusions are heavily influenced by personal biases and cultural backgrounds. As a result, theological claims lack universal consistency and credibility. Worse, they can be completely internally consistent to one religion, but completely inconsistent to another religion - the only parallel is in fiction: The Stars Wars universe is distinctly different from the Lord of the Rings universe. Only by entering into one universe can you find consistency, yet, there is nothing to objectively assess one universe from the other with religion. Islam, Mormonism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. - they can't be proven wrong by another religion, since they all rely on supernatural and irrational beliefs; at least when viewed objectively.

Historical Conflicts and Divisions: Theology has played a significant role in historical conflicts, disputes, and divisions among different religious groups. Theological disagreements have often led to religious wars, schisms, and animosities, which can be seen as evidence of the negative consequences of theological study. It's not just that Theology is useless - it's dangerous. At least when someone brings up science and how it created the atom bomb, one can point to cancer cures and other benefits. With Theology, there seems to be no significant benefit - that is, if one points to the joy or peace religion offers, that can be done without theology, or, put another way: A ancient Polynesian found as much joy and peace in their religion as a modern Christian and theology would make no difference to that truth.

Limited Practical Utility: While theology may provide insights into the beliefs and practices of religious groups, it often has limited practical utility in addressing real-world problems and challenges. Fields like medicine, engineering, and economics offer tangible solutions and improvements to society, while theology is often seen as offering little practical guidance. Imagine all the people studying theology were to actually apply themselves to solving real problems? In truth, Theology is a massively egotistical practice of navel gazing.

Decline in Influence: In many modern societies, the influence of theology has declined significantly. People increasingly turn to secular and evidence-based approaches to address questions about the world and human existence, relegating theology to a more peripheral role in shaping public policy, education, and moral values. More and more - other than people studying theology to get rich off of old ladies - there is no demand for theologians to weigh in on any problem that faces the world. Sure, they are trotted out for a 30 second spot to comment on Halloween, or their view about another Virgin Mary statue leaking, but there are no serious people asking theologians for serious answers to serious questions.

Ethical and Moral Questions: Theological discussions around ethics and morality are often seen as arbitrary and subjective, as they depend on specific religious beliefs and interpretations. This can hinder the development of a shared moral framework that is inclusive and relevant to diverse societies. in fact, as I repeatedly say: No one understand morality less than a religious person.

Redundancy: Many philosophical and ethical questions that theology attempts to answer can also be addressed by other fields, such as philosophy, psychology, sociology, and ethics, without relying on religious beliefs. This makes theology appear redundant in the quest for knowledge and understanding. In the race case a theologian may have an actual answer that matters (I can't think of one), these are better answered by other fields; fields that have objective methods to determine the truth or falsity of the claims.

Changing Social and Cultural Norms: As societies evolve and adapt to changing norms and values, theology may find itself struggling to keep up with these shifts. Theological doctrines that were once considered absolute may become outdated and irrelevant in the face of evolving social and cultural norms. All religions die - all theologies become obsolete. Sure, current theologians believe their religion is the exception - which is exactly what all the other theologians believed before. Also, to this point, we see how religions change to meet current beliefs: Gay pastors, for example. What happened to no gays? It appears the earlier theologians were wrong - or the current ones are - and it's all just speculation and subjective opinion.

Lack of Consensus: Theological debates often lack consensus and can result in never-ending discussions without clear resolutions. This lack of conclusive answers can lead to frustration and a sense of futility in theological inquiry. There has never been consensus, never will be consensus because there are no facts to discuss. There is no "there there."

These are reasons Theology is useless. I would argue it damaging on top of it's uselessness - which makes it ultimately dangerous.

But, worse, beyond it being useless, it's so simplistic and arbitrary that it allows anyone to do it. Even the most simple-minded fool can wax on about their belief about their favorite God of the hour. They can make all kinds of proclamations about what their God thinks, want, wonders, does or does do. They can be inconsistent and claim it's us, the non-believer that doesn't understand! They can say things like "God says yes, no and maybe". They can claim God is too complex to understand - yet, they will tell us all about how they understand God. (This phenomenon isn't about how complex God is, but how poor the person is at expressing their childish grasp of a ephemeral subject that doesn't exist).

And, still worse... yes, it gets worse: Theology is a field ripe for attracting the insane; the conspiracy minded; the tin-foil hat wearing buffoons' that from their basement in Iowa have somehow discovered the answer to all questions through numbers and signs; who somehow know exactly what the government is doing, and is someone been anointed by God to understand these things and educate us all on these matters. And they are treated as divinely inspired - get that? Insane ramblings are equal to "divine inspiration" - That should tell us something of how valuable Theology is when you can't distinguish madness from inspired truth.

And still worse... Theology can be invented from whole cloth and considered respectable by the people who practice it: Think of how serious Scientologists take themselves! Mormons! Christians! They all think they all took themselves so seriously even as they were inventing the religion! Don't think for a moment that early Christians were any different from any other early religious group. They joined their little circles and told stories that made them feel good and decided it was the truth that everyone needed to hear. What ego! What profound ignorance! The blind leading the blind - and Theologians giving them cover every step of the way.

Watch the pomp and pageantry of a Church service. Watch how seriously they take the breaking of bread, or hanging from hooks, or dipping of water, or wearing special underwear, or bathing in the Ganges, or walking on coals... These were developed by Theologians to honor their imaginary gods - and there is no telling which, if any, actually does the thing it is supposed to do: God answers yes, no or maybe - remember? So, Theologians could say, "You must drink wine and eat bread to curry favor of Malosh the One-Eyed Bull God (or whatever practice or god) - but you can't know if that works because "yes, no, maybe."

In other words, a Theologian could invent ideas that they know are invented, but if he can get someone to believe them, he still gets paid. There is no QA/QC when it comes to Theology. If a school rejects some loon because they don't believe the Bible properly, that Theologian gets to go to another school and claim they are the one speaking the truth, and the old school is filled with vipers and heretics - and - as the events surrounding Marcion proved - none of it matters except that one tradition wins out over another. Not truth, mind you, just one story sounds better to more people.

Like art. Like a Hollywood Blockbuster. But, there is room in theology for the Art House films, and a host of other takes on the Supernatural Cartoon Universe in which gods can turn people into trees, water into wine, etc.

And we are supposed to take this seriously? We are to be respectful of these outrageously inane beliefs? Really? Have you seen the Pope's hat and robes? They are hilarious! It's as if they are mocking us - begging us to say something.

So, there is my argument against Theology. Would anyone like to argue in favor of Theology?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #41

Post by TRANSPONDER »

bjs1 wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:40 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 12:29 pm
bjs1 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:45 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 7:30 am I am going to argue that there are few things more useless than Theology.

Definition I will be using:
Theology is the systematic study and interpretation of religious beliefs, doctrines, practices, and texts within the context of a specific religious tradition or belief system.
You seem to devote a fair amount of your free time to doing exactly this. I wonder why you would do so since you consider such actions to be useless.
I put that through the Theist- English translator app and it came out, guess what? "Atheists, please shut up and go away". Amazing how many ways Theists, Christians and Bible -apologists have of saying the same thing.
You mean when theists say nothing remotely similar to what you wrote, and then you assign new meaning to our words based on what you want us to have said? Yeah, I suppose in that circumstance it would appear that we are all saying the same thing.
Of course it's the way I see it. But I read something and wonder': Why is he saying that? I get the motive behind these very familiar 'Why do you atheists waste your time on stuff you don't believe' remarks, and can you blame me if I see it as a variant of trying to shut atheists up? I invite you to explain why you were asking what was it...? "You seem to devote a fair amount of your free time to doing exactly this. I wonder why you would do so since you consider such actions to be useless." if it is not really...honestly?...at bottom a desire for atheists to stop raising doubts and questions about theism, religion and theology and 'Ji]Just let people believe whatever they want[/i]" which itself translates as "Shut up and let us preach, evangelise and push our religion without anyone dissenting" look in your own eye, as they say and ask whether that isn't really what such snipes at atheist mean.

I see it so often in posts that make no real case but just want to 'witness'or 'preach' (sorry for quotes, but I gather such terms may be too specific to cover the actual practice of posting reams of...preaching, really, without doing or even inviting, any actual discussion. Sorry again, O:) but the way Bible - apologists think is rather more interesting than what they think, because I do indeed find Theology monumentally useless and futile, like producing speculative tomes about the social and political systems in place in fairyland. .

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Re: Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #42

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #37
You may try to control the parameters of the discussion. That'll do you as much good as your attempts to make a case for theism or a god.
If that's all you can say against my case, I'd say it's held up fairly well.

So if that goes, what case have you got for religious Faith being useful, never mind the Theology that is based on it?
"Spirituality is a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves—it helps a person look within and understand themselves while also figuring out the greater answer of how they fit in to the rest of the world. In other words: It helps people understand their interpretation of the meaning of life."

https://www.nami.org/Blogs/NAMI-Blog/De ... -Spiritual

One benefit of theology is that it moves us beyond an intellectually stultifying "if-we-can't-grasp-it,-it-ain't-there" level of thinking.

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Re: Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #43

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:49 am [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #37
You may try to control the parameters of the discussion. That'll do you as much good as your attempts to make a case for theism or a god.
If that's all you can say against my case, I'd say it's held up fairly well.

So if that goes, what case have you got for religious Faith being useful, never mind the Theology that is based on it?
"Spirituality is a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves—it helps a person look within and understand themselves while also figuring out the greater answer of how they fit in to the rest of the world. In other words: It helps people understand their interpretation of the meaning of life."

https://www.nami.org/Blogs/NAMI-Blog/De ... -Spiritual

One benefit of theology is that it moves us beyond an intellectually stultifying "if-we-can't-grasp-it,-it-ain't-there" level of thinking.
Frankly, going on past experience, I can't even be bothered to go back and look. If anyone here thinks you were making any kind of valid poiut, they are welcome to repost it for consideration.

I disagree with your apologetic for theology. I'm sure you're smart enough to to get this analogy. Well, the actual case serves better than any analogy I can think of - evolutionary biology (science, in fact) is likely to tell us more about all that stuff than theology. With doctrine, Dogma and delimitation of thinking confined to the religious mental Box, it has ceased to serve any useful purpose and should be discarded, just like trying to decide human life, liberty and law on the basis of a belief in witches. Senator, we gotta do do better.

You certainly have to do better than your putrid (and I mean dead and gone) theist apologetic 'Skeptics deny possibilities'. Trust me, God - believers will Never get the meaning of life (even if there was one beyond what mattered to us) because they cannot think outside the Theistic box.

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Re: Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #44

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #43
Frankly, going on past experience, I can't even be bothered to go back and look. If anyone here thinks you were making any kind of valid poiut, they are welcome to repost it for consideration.

I disagree with your apologetic for theology. I'm sure you're smart enough to to get this analogy. Well, the actual case serves better than any analogy I can think of - evolutionary biology (science, in fact) is likely to tell us more about all that stuff than theology. With doctrine, Dogma and delimitation of thinking confined to the religious mental Box, it has ceased to serve any useful purpose and should be discarded, just like trying to decide human life, liberty and law on the basis of a belief in witches. Senator, we gotta do do better.

You certainly have to do better than your putrid (and I mean dead and gone) theist apologetic 'Skeptics deny possibilities'. Trust me, God - believers will Never get the meaning of life (even if there was one beyond what mattered to us) because they cannot think outside the Theistic box.
I think I have done better.

But you can't be bothered to go back and look.

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Re: Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #45

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:03 am [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #43
Frankly, going on past experience, I can't even be bothered to go back and look. If anyone here thinks you were making any kind of valid poiut, they are welcome to repost it for consideration.

I disagree with your apologetic for theology. I'm sure you're smart enough to to get this analogy. Well, the actual case serves better than any analogy I can think of - evolutionary biology (science, in fact) is likely to tell us more about all that stuff than theology. With doctrine, Dogma and delimitation of thinking confined to the religious mental Box, it has ceased to serve any useful purpose and should be discarded, just like trying to decide human life, liberty and law on the basis of a belief in witches. Senator, we gotta do do better.

You certainly have to do better than your putrid (and I mean dead and gone) theist apologetic 'Skeptics deny possibilities'. Trust me, God - believers will Never get the meaning of life (even if there was one beyond what mattered to us) because they cannot think outside the Theistic box.
I think I have done better.

But you can't be bothered to go back and look.
I don't think you have done better. In fact it is evidence that you haven't that rather than address any issues do pin everything on a tiny point you think you have won - I was disinclined to go back and check your posts.

That you make that your case shows you have nothing better.. But you are welcome to go back to your earlier posts and repost any points you want to bring up.

In fact looking back your effort to appeal to authority for an article that was irrelevant anyway (that placebos work does not mean that placebos do anything but human belief does) and one might argue that religion (any one you like) might have some imaginary benefit on a person with problems, it doesn't make the theology based on those beliefs any more than fanfiction than a dissertation of Romulan law and custom.

In short, your attempt to make previous posts the winning point here fails, as much as it did in the previous posts.

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Re: Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #46

Post by boatsnguitars »

bjs1 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:45 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 7:30 am I am going to argue that there are few things more useless than Theology.

Definition I will be using:
Theology is the systematic study and interpretation of religious beliefs, doctrines, practices, and texts within the context of a specific religious tradition or belief system.
You seem to devote a fair amount of your free time to doing exactly this. I wonder why you would do so since you consider such actions to be useless.
I consider myself to be doing anti-Theology apologetics. I'd like to save people from Theology.

Yet, you might be right. Maybe I am doing what I consider to be useless. Is what I do useful?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #47

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #45
That you make that your case shows you have nothing better.. But you are welcome to go back to your earlier posts and repost any points you want to bring up.
I've provided references to the basis of my case and see no need to be repetitive. No matter if you're not inclined to look back over them. Others can do so if they wish.

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Re: Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #48

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 8:30 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #45
That you make that your case shows you have nothing better.. But you are welcome to go back to your earlier posts and repost any points you want to bring up.
I've provided references to the basis of my case and see no need to be repetitive. No matter if you're not inclined to look back over them. Others can do so if they wish.
As I said in my previous post, i went back and looked and commented. I see the appeal to placebo effect not actually helpful to the case for religion, let alone theology based on a religion.

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Re: Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #49

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #48
As I said in my previous post, i went back and looked and commented. I see the appeal to placebo effect not actually helpful to the case for religion, let alone theology based on a religion.
"A placebo is any treatment that has no active properties, such as a sugar pill.There are many clinical trials where a person who has taken the placebo instead of the active treatment has reported an improvement in symptoms. Belief in a treatment may be enough to change the course of a person's physical illness."

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/hea ... ebo-effect

Seems that a placebo effect can be
useful after all.

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Re: Theology, What is it Good For? Absolutely Nothing!

Post #50

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Athetotheist wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:13 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #48
As I said in my previous post, i went back and looked and commented. I see the appeal to placebo effect not actually helpful to the case for religion, let alone theology based on a religion.
"A placebo is any treatment that has no active properties, such as a sugar pill.There are many clinical trials where a person who has taken the placebo instead of the active treatment has reported an improvement in symptoms. Belief in a treatment may be enough to change the course of a person's physical illness."

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/hea ... ebo-effect

Seems that a placebo effect can be
useful after all.
:D Yes, but if the placebo works without religion - just belief in medicine - it is no apologetic for religion. That is why your previous argument failed. Thus it is no excuse, let alone validation or rationale, for religion. Religion stands or falls on it's own merits, not whether it can be used for its' therapeutic aspect.

If it fails on credibility (and I assert that bit does) I also assert that it makes Theology and discussion of doctrine, pointless, futile and an utter waste of time.

cue: :mrgreen: "Aren't you wasting you time talking about it, then?"

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