The "point one enters" = "The Beginning". Within the scope of eternity - if a mind enters some kind of body, the mind begins to experience whatever that kind of body allows such to experience and a mind can exit said "kind of body" at a later moment and enter some other kind of body.
Even while said mind is in between body changes, it is still embodied within The Creator Mind so overall I would say that is how I think will go along with eternity - Within the infinite Creator Mind.
In light of that I can argue (therefore) I am (we are) always within The Creator Mind and thus always experiencing eternity, always have experienced eternity and always ever will do.
This means that I think the experience of being human is a sojourn where I have (as a mind) tried out said experience for a brief moment of time, within the eternal timelessness.
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Replying to otseng in post #4121]
"Things"? We were discussing voices in particular. We were not discussing whether what the voices say can be true or false but whether such voices should be considered not to be real.
Fundamentally, I'm not interested in just voices, but all of the physical world. There's a differences between voices in our mind and the claim of a world existing in a mind. You can't claim just because we hear voices in our mind therefore all of the universe exists within God's mind.
The fundamental in this argument is The Creator Mind and biblically speaking said Mind is big on voices and on humans hearing and listening to the voices - in the case of the Bible God - specifically listening to His Voice.
Therefore I reject your reasoning as besides the point.
Different variations can be presented to "harmonize" them. For example, we can all be in a computer simulation inside God's mind.
Please explain this concept as a possible contender for consideration.
God created a computer inside his mind. The computer is running a simulation of the entire universe.
Going along with that concept, The Creator Mind creating a computer inside The Creator Mind seems to be as redundant as creating the universe outside of Itself. (1)
Why do that when One is already able/completely capable of doing that for Oneself?
So, even giving the concept some due, one then has to answer "why" would The Creator Mind deem it necessary to create a computer in It's House, that would run simulations of rooms that minds could experience, rather than simply placing minds in actual rooms for experience?
I accept the concept you offered, to that point. Do you have an answer to the question posed?
Or we can be in the Creator's mind inside a computer simulation.
How is that different from your first variation offered here?
A computer simulation is running a program to model the mind of omnipotent creator. The mind then simulates the the entire universe inside its mind.
A computer simulation is running a program to model the mind of omnipotent creator. The mind then simulates the the entire universe inside its mind.
I see no difference (of significance) which places this concept as different from the first one you offered.
You are describing the attribute of the computer and making it sentient by allowing it the power to simulate actual rooms that exist in The Creator Mind.
You would now have to explain where the minds - which can experience said computer simulations - come from, in relation to said computer mind.
If we are in a computer simulation, it could be we are inside an actual universe or in another computer simulation.
Please explain how we can be in a computer simulation and also in an actual universe.
Actually, that's what simulation theory believes.
Yes, that was the 50/50 aspect we discussed earlier, re (2).
The first universe would an actual real universe (A).
Yes. Within The Creator Mind (3) or somewhere undefined (1)
Inside A, there is a supercomputer that runs a universe simulation program
According to (1) the universe is seen to be "real" but is (re your concept) actually a computer simulation.
(B). If we are in B, A would exist, even though we cannot interact with A.
Hang on there...why would The Creator Mind create a computer within Itself and make it so that The minds in (B) cannot interact with The Creator Mind (or minds within Creator Mind who are not within the computer simulation?
Perhaps this is where you need to connect the dots.
1) Why did TCM make a computer in which to simulate It's mind in relation to the minds within the simulation and at the same time make it so said minds couldn't comune with any mind outside of the simulation?
I think the question is what is our immediate universe that we are in? It'd have to be one of the three options.
And I showed how believing in a creator which exists outside of the creation is similar to (2) in that (2) also has it that way.
That's why I said our immediate universe.
? We agree.
Yet clearly the Bible does not say anything about a lot of things, so your point would have to be that - for example - dinosaurs cannot have ever existed since there is no mention of them in the Bible. Either that OR, because they were not mentioned in the Bible, the God of the Bible is being deceptive.
But, the Bible does make claims about God creating everything. How does the act of creation work in the Creator mind theory?
Glad You asked!
A view on how The Creator Mind creates.
Based upon the idea of Big Bang Theory and Evolution Theory the explanation is that something called the singularity "contained" everything that the universe currently evolved into, through series of events known as epochs.
(Some well-known epochs include the Planck Epoch, Inflationary Epoch, Electroweak Epoch, and the various stages of the Hot Big Bang, among others.)
In terms of this all happening within The Creator Mind, the singularity represents the "spark of a thought" and the thought itself represents the energy released - not just in the initial thought but in all subsequent thinking which followed through the single event to spread out into that region of The Creator Mind, producing this particular universe we are involved within.
(Within the framework of the Creator Mind hypothesis, the singularity can be likened to the spark of a thought emanating within the mind of the Creator. This initial thought sets forth a cascade of energy release, not only in its inception but also in the subsequent chain of thoughts that ripple through the expanse of the Creator Mind. These thoughts, analogous to the events unfolding through the epochs in scientific theories, propagate throughout the vastness of the Creator Mind, ultimately giving rise to the creation and evolution of the universe.)
The energy is the thought in action within The Creator Mind (TCM). The energy is physical and so to is the one who thought it and this is how mindfulness interacts with itself to produce objects which can then be experienced intimately - eventually - on all levels
As the initial result unfolded into the epochs, there appeared various objects (Galaxies) which was what TCM had envisioned re the initial thought, and allowed TCM opportunity to inject its mindfulness into the objects being created.
This in turn, led to a type of fine-tuning, mindfully so...
(Within the realm of the Creator Mind (TCM), the energy released from the initial thought manifests as physical reality. This energy, imbued with the conscious intent of the Creator, interacts within TCM to give rise to tangible objects and phenomena. As the epochs unfold, galaxies and other cosmic entities emerge in alignment with the envisioned plan within TCM's consciousness.
Through this process, TCM engages in a form of mindful interaction with its creation, fine-tuning the evolving universe with deliberate intent. This conscious engagement infuses the cosmos with purpose and intricacy, allowing for intimate experiences to emerge across all levels of existence.)
TCM achieves this engagement with the objects by being the "minds" within said objects, which eventually leads us to Earth and our human experience.
This is where we pick up the story unfolding re the question of a Sentient Earth - (Is the planet mindful and would this explain why there is life in earth?)
(By inhabiting the forms it creates, the Creator Mind (TCM) becomes the mindfulness within those forms. This perspective suggests that TCM's consciousness permeates through the various entities it brings into existence, including Earth and its inhabitants. Thus, rather than Earth possessing mindfulness independently, it is imbued with mindfulness through the presence of TCM within its forms. This interconnectedness between TCM and its creations underscores a profound unity and mutual influence between the Creator and the created.)
In turn, TCM in the form of planet Earth, is enabled (over time) to perform more fine tuning by creating an incredible variety of forms which TCM (in the role of Earth-Mind) is then able to occupy (be the life/mindfulness within.)
(TCM, manifesting as planet Earth, undergoes a process of refinement, enabling it to perform further fine-tuning. Through this refinement, Earth generates an astonishing array of forms, each of which becomes imbued with the consciousness of TCM—the Earth-Mind. These diverse forms serve as vessels for TCM's presence and mindfulness, allowing for a rich and intricate tapestry of life experiences to unfold on the planet. Through the occupation of these forms, TCM engages intimately with its creation, fostering evolution and complexity within the interconnected web of life on Earth.)
Each sojourn (epoch) deeper into the creation (this universe) brings with it heighten forgetfulness as the form being engaged with acts to prevent prior states and the initial state of mindfulness from being known by TCM occupying said forms.
Some examples of how this is happening are in the following;
1. Tool Use: Certain animals, such as primates and birds, demonstrate the ability to use tools for various purposes, indicating a level of cognitive sophistication.
2. Problem-Solving Abilities: Many species exhibit problem-solving skills in response to challenges in their environment, suggesting a capacity for foresight and planning.
3. Social Cooperation: Numerous organisms, including humans, engage in complex social behaviors, such as cooperation, communication, and empathy, which require an understanding of others' perspectives.
4. Self-Awareness: Some animals display signs of self-awareness, as demonstrated by their ability to recognize themselves in mirrors or engage in behaviors indicative of introspection.
5. Learning and Adaptation: Biological organisms exhibit the capacity to learn from experience and adapt their behavior accordingly, showing a form of cognitive flexibility."
These examples provide evidence of cognitive abilities and behaviors across various species, indicating a continuum of consciousness and mindfulness within the forms inhabited by TCM, highlighting the intricate interplay between consciousness, cognition, and behavior across different forms of life, offering glimpses into the evolving journey of TCM within its own Mind-Field.
TCM is undertaking this exploration and refinement within its own consciousness, as the universe is conceptualized as existing within The Creator Mind. Through the diverse manifestations of consciousness within the forms it inhabits, TCM delves deeper into its own mindfulness, weaving a rich tapestry of experiences and insights within the vast expanse of its own being.
Neither of those is contrary to position (3). (3) has it that everything which can be experienced, is real because it all exists within The Creator Mind.
Simply stating circular logic does not support your case.
The same applies to (1) in that regard. Are we to drop conversation because "circular logic" and thus surrender to atheism?
Or shall we continue with our explorations?
You see, even in your own arguments you are thinking God's mind would behave in the same manner that wayward human minds behave, and in that - declaring "if we are in God's mind, then God would be deceiving and misleading us".
We have to approach things with our own thinking, logic, and intuition. How do you know your understanding is correct then?
Because it is the most reasonable under the present circumstances. Do you disagree with my assessment of the different ways knowledge of good and evil can be perceived (re gods and humans) and are you arguing that our own devices (thinking, logic, and intuition) are not up to/designed for the task?
Why would The Creator Mind (3) deceive us? Or, why wouldn't the Bible God (1) deceive us?
Actually, I've never based my argument for the trustworthiness of the Bible on God not being deceptive. I've spent hundreds of pages presenting logical arguments and verifiable evidence on establishing its veracity without presenting God's nature. Now given we can accept the Bible as reliable, I'm arguing how we perceive reality further aligns with the Bible and God's nature.
Thus, now the hard yak has been done, one has the basis for arguing Bible Gods' Nature without being circular.
Even so, I am simply agreeing with the assessment that The Creator Mind cannot act with deception, based on those same findings and more which align with said findings, so am taking the example of the Bible God as being an accurate ambassador/image for The Creator Mind we exist within. In that, I can declare that The Creator Mind is indeed without deception/trustworthy and not be circular with my reasoning. (Therein (1) and (3) have a crossover/similarity.
For starters, I have revised your list in order to make it more acurate.
1. Real Created Universe Theory: Our universe is considered to be actually real and exists as an entity created by a creator outside of our universe.
2. Simulated Universe Theory: Our universe is running inside a simulation, possibly created and maintained by advanced beings or technology.
3. Everything Exists As Real Within The Creator Mind Theory: Everything exists entirely within The Creator Mind and everything that exists is real.
I have no idea what you mean by "everything that exists is real" in 3. I can agree it would be perceptually real, but I would disagree it's actually real.
Is this because, as powerful as your Bible God is, (omnipotent creator) you do not regard His imagination (mindfulness) can create actual real things? Or perhaps that His mind is not actually a representation of what is The Real (actually real) Creator Mind?
Kinda like that computer concept you offered, where The Creator Mind (The Real) created a computer to simulate Its Mind ("model the mind of omnipotent creator") for whatever minds inside the computer to experience...in this case the God of (1) is the computer mind of (3)...
I am pointing out that both theories (1) and (2) involve the concept of an external creator mind shaping the universe, despite their differences in other aspects and you are avoiding addressing that similarity, other than making the claim that God is not deceptive (always true/speaking the truth, which (3) also assumes to be the case.
Still have no idea what you're asking. If you don't believe 1 or 2, why would I need to address their similarity? The issue would really be the differences between 1 and 3.
Until your "Computer within The Creator Mind" concept is put to rest, (2) remains viable re (3) - which is "why".
This was the fundamental debate. Then you brought up your Creator mind theory. I've asked for supporting evidence for your theory and the only one you presented was your personal interpretation of John 14:2-3, which I've refuted with how a Jewish audience would have interpreted it. So, discussing the similarities of 1 and 2 have nothing to do with attacking 3.
No you didn't refute it. You ignored my reply regarding what it means to be Married to God (re Jewish Mysticism) and marched on obliviously.