If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .

[Zzyzx]

.
If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been WHY didn't he say or do anything new or useful?
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/04/ch ... -question/

[tam]

[Replying to post 60 by Blastcat]

Yes, Blastcat, I am willing to understand your position. Now will you state it clearly?


Peace.

[rikuoamero]

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]



Do anything useful? Ask that to the paralytic. And if Jesus' death/resurrection did anything have as good as the N.T. claims, I'd call that useful.

Of course if you discount the miraculous, then your question is really "why didn't the Jesus in my head ever do anything useful". In which case the answer is, "Because he is the Jesus in your head--you created him, you made him impotent".

Say anything useful? Highly subjective. You might not find any of it useful.

But yes, I agree Jesus was not "original" in his ethical teaching. As Samuel Johnson once said, people have to be reminded more often than taught.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 61 by tam]

Yes, Blastcat, I am willing to understand your position. Now will you state it clearly?
Peace.

Tam, I can see that you're trying now.

You demonstrated it TWO ways in your post:

1. You answered my direct question directly.
2. You didn't use the signature that you know that I find offensive.

That indicates a willingness to try to see things my way.
That's hopeful.

Now.. Riku did a good job explaining already.. but I always like to do my own explanations.

Tam, my point has been that OTHERS interpret the Bible THEIR way.. and OTHERS call themselves true Christians.. who TRULY follow Christ and so on.. Some of these other Christians were SO SURE, in fact, that they had no trouble interpreting those lovely Bible passages to mean that they could BURN PEOPLE ON THE STAKE.

Now, YOU might call those people not following Christ, but most importantly, tam, THEY might have said the very same thing of YOU.

It's NO use complaining to us that THEY aren't true Christians, tam. THEY probably would have said the same about yourself.

And ATHEISTS don't care about this debate.. go debate it with THEM. ATHEISTS aren't CHRISTIANS.

Now, please, tam, I've tried to be as clear as possible, and a little succinct. I hope now, that you understand my point, but just in case that you still don't, I will put it in POINT FORM. It's as clear as I can make it, tam.

That's why I usually use point form. TO BE CLEAR AND SUCCINCT.

1. You claim to be a true Christian.. or TRULY following Christ.. and that others don''t.
2. These others can, in fact, say the very same thing of YOU.
3. Atheists are NOT in the position to decide which is which.
4. So, THEREFORE, it's USELESS to tell atheists you are the true Christian and that others aren't.

Is that clear enough?
IF not, I can keep trying. I have to do MY part of the bargain.

Yours is trying to understand my position as best you can.
You have agreed to do that.

I will await your reply to see if you DO understand it.
( a good way for me to know if you do, is to reflect it back in your own words )

[tam]

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 64 by Blastcat]

2. You didn't use the signature that you know that I find offensive.

Holy...I didn't even notice. Thanks tam for doing so, and my apologies to you for not noticing until Blastcat mentioned it.
I'd like to ask a question about it. Why use the word 'slave'? If I remember previous discussions on the topic right, the logic you used to defend your usage of it should have meant that you'd be using the words servant or disciple or student or follower instead.
Whenever someone says to me "I'm a disciple of Christ", I don't bat an eyelid. I know they mean that they willingly follow Christ.
But when you used, for the longest time, the phrase "slave of Christ", I honestly did not know what you meant. You're an unwilling follower of Christ? Christ enslaved you, bent you to his will? But no, you replied, you follow him willingly.

UPDATE
Oh no. I post this, scroll back up...and there it is back again, in the post directly above this one.
Picard level facepalm.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 65 by tam]

The passages that Blastcat quoted do not equal - burn people at the stake.

They do not directly say it, I agree. However, they CAN be interpreted that way. They CAN be interpreted as meaning that if God will burn non-believers in the afterlife, therefore it's good and moral to do it now.
My question still stands. When such misinterpretation happened, why no stepping in from Christ?

They were not listening to Christ.

They were listening to something or someone OVER Christ, but they were not listening to CHRIST.

Why no booming voice from the heavens to tell such people to not do it?

If either of you could find even a single passage where Christ taught that His followers should burn people at the stake, to even torture and persecute them, you would have done it by now.

I've discussed this with you in the past. The heretic burners would have been studying the entire Bible and probably used the Old Testament, where God himself burns people alive, and commands armies to kill and slaughter. If the all knowing all powerful God, who does not change, once commanded armies to wipe out entire villages and put to the sword anyone who doesn't believe in God, then surely he'd be in favour of it today (today being the time of the heretic burners).
You've given verses from the Bible that you interpret as meaning one thing. The heretic burners had their own choice verses that they pointed to and they interpreted as meaning they should burn heretics.
When you say to Blastcat and I that these people aren't obeying Christ, you're talking to the wrong people. As BC said, we're non-believers. We can't tell who IS obeying Christ for realsies. Both you and the heretic burners stand on an equal footing. We have no way to decide between you.
What BC and I are saying is that if there actually WERE a real loving God who is all about love and peace and all that jazz, such a being would NEVER allow this situation to develop. Such a being would not allow heretic burners to burn heretics in his name.

[Zzyzx]

[tam]

[Replying to post 61 by tam]

Yes, Blastcat, I am willing to understand your position. Now will you state it clearly?
Peace.

Now.. Riku did a good job explaining already.. but I always like to do my own explanations.

And I responded to rik's post. But I will respond also to yours.

Tam, my point has been that OTHERS interpret the Bible THEIR way.. and OTHERS call themselves true Christians.. who TRULY follow Christ and so on.. Some of these other Christians were SO SURE, in fact, that they had no trouble interpreting those lovely Bible passages to mean that they could BURN PEOPLE ON THE STAKE.

Yes that is your position...

Now, YOU might call those people not following Christ, but most importantly, tam, THEY might have said the very same thing of YOU.

Yep. I have never said otherwise.

It's NO use complaining to us that THEY aren't true Christians, tam. THEY probably would have said the same about yourself.

Thankfully I am not complaining to you about that then. I am, in fact, merely responding to a question that was asked of me by someone in this thread.

And ATHEISTS don't care about this debate.. go debate it with THEM. ATHEISTS aren't CHRISTIANS.

PGH is the member who asked me the question. I do not know if he is an atheist or not. It does not matter to me. I responded directly to a question asked of me.

This thread was started by an atheist (or rather "a non-theist with ignostic leanings")

So obviously some do care about the debate. I do not think that you are in a position to state who is interested and who is not interested in this debate, or in the question of how to tell if one is following Christ or not. In fact, why ask the question if you are uninterested or merely wish to 'poo poo' the response?

Or have you forgotten that YOU are the one who asked me how you could know the difference. You initiated this conversation between us.

Now, please, tam, I've tried to be as clear as possible, and a little succinct. I hope now, that you understand my point, but just in case that you still don't, I will put it in POINT FORM. It's as clear as I can make it, tam.

Excellent.

That's why I usually use point form. TO BE CLEAR AND SUCCINCT.

1. You claim to be a true Christian.. or TRULY following Christ.. and that others don''t.
2. These others can, in fact, say the very same thing of YOU.
3. Atheists are NOT in the position to decide which is which.
4. So, THEREFORE, it's USELESS to tell atheists you are the true Christian and that others aren't.

Is that clear enough?

Its clear, but I am not sure it makes sense, considering who initiated this conversation.

First, I did not say that I am the true christian and others are not. I did not make a claim about me at all. Someone asked me why there is so much conflict between believers. I answered that question.

You jumped in and proceeded to ask me how an atheist can know the difference... and now you are telling me that atheist are uninterested in that debate, and that I should go debate with other believers about it.

When you are the one who asked me the question to begin with.

Do you understand my confusion here?

Here is a recap of the beginning of this conversation:


BC wrote:

Hi tam.
This is an interesting exchange:
PghPanther wrote:

Why is it then that there is so much conflict over who he is.......what he claims to be.....and what he is suppose to reveal ....not among the secure world.............but among believers themselves?


tam wrote:
Because not everyone who claims to know Him actually does know Him.

BC wrote:

Hi tam, interesting claim that you make there.

So, I have to ask you.. Do you just CLAIM to know him or ACTUALLY know Him?
How can we tell the difference between who you claim are just claiming to know Him, and your claims to know Him?

The conversation proceeded from there. YOU asked ME.

You cannot turn around and then tell me atheist are uninterested and I should only go have that debate with other Christians.



**
Now your point seems to be that people have their own interpretations and you (or atheists) cannot tell which interpretation is correct or not? So it is pointless to have debates like that with atheists?

Is that correct?


If that is what you think, then why would you engage me in a conversation on it? Why would you ask me a question as to how you could know? I answered thinking you were asking a sincere question.



If you say you cannot tell what is correct or not, then who am I to dispute that? Maybe you cannot, but some other atheist/agnostic/ignostic/or even a fellow believer will find the information helpful?

I certainly dispute the point that it is impossible to tell who is or is not listening to Christ, if only on specific matters:


"Bless those who curse you"... cannot be interpreted as... "Curse those who curse you."


Do not welcome 'them' (heretics) into your home; love your enemies; do good to those who hate you; shake the dust off your feet and leave that house/town; etc, etc... cannot be interpreted as... 'burn em at the stake.'


Do you agree or disagree?


As a non-muslim, I can still look at Islam and see that those Muslims who behead people just for not converting to Islam... they are not following their prophet or their holy book. Because the Quran gives specific instruction that a Muslim is only to give warning, and nothing more.

I don't have to be a Muslim to see that. I can just read the holy book for myself.

If I can do that as a non-muslim, why can't some do that as a non-christian?

In fact, I think there are multiple non-Christians who can see even if only from what is written, if a person is following Christ or not. Some of them are on this forum. We might not always be right, but that is where discussion can be useful; to talk it out.







Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

And in fact, I am finished with anything that is not on topic, and I sincerely apologize to Zzyzx for my part in continuing the derailment.


If you, Blastcat or Rik, wish to continue to discuss matters unrelated to the topic at hand, please begin a new thread and provide me with a link (if you want make sure I see it).



Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy