You Are No Longer You!

[POI]

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. Hence, you must have a portion of your freewill stripped from you (in some capacity).
2) You will not mourn for any of your loved ones, which do not also make it into Heaven; as Heaven has no mourning, as it is Heaven after all.

Which begs a follow up question....

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to POI in post #3]

Why not just allow all into Heaven?

I've seen several 'reasons' but most center around not being 'righteous' enough.

Yes, playing tennis without a net sure must be nice

No net means there's no chance of tripping over it if you try to jump it

[TRANSPONDER]

Can you provide the reference ? I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation and application of Paul's (?) words and will need to check the context.


Thanks


JW

I cor. 3. 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This does require some interpretation .... the image here is of the works of a believer if they are not up the heavenly standard being burned out so the soul is fit to be saved. ....

Okay, so your interpretation is that when Paul refers to " work" he is refering to the past action of a believer? That is what I take it you think ... but I'm confused as to what you think is burnt ... their past actions? Them? And what you think is represented by the fire ("being burnt out") ... death? Hell? You mention a persons "soul" , where doe that fit in? I'm finding your explanation somewhat confusing.

Soul = believer
Works = past actions (?)
Fire = ?
Burned = ?

I cannot say whether or not I agree with the premise of your question if I cannot understand it. Perhaps you can rephrase...


JW

I'll try. One problem is that Paul was a Jew and didn't have a lot of Christian ideas. He thought in terms of a Last Days resurrection and (after judgement) messianic perfect rule on Earth.

Thus the works would be purged as if with fire and the sufficiently righteous would emerge to eternal life.

But we have to see that through Christian eyes and they think (mostly) in terms of judgement after death and getting into heaven, or going to Hell - which is not what Paul was talking about.

Thus, this earthly purging has to be seen as a heavenly one (outside the pearly turnstile of course) and I'm getting at the idea of burning out all the earthly and human sin and if there's enough Righteous soul left, what remains gets into heaven.

Is this rephrased enough?

[JehovahsWitness]

Can you provide the reference ? I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation and application of Paul's (?) words and will need to check the context.


Thanks


JW

I cor. 3. 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This does require some interpretation .... the image here is of the works of a believer if they are not up the heavenly standard being burned out so the soul is fit to be saved. ....

Okay, so your interpretation is that when Paul refers to " work" he is refering to the past action of a believer? That is what I take it you think ... but I'm confused as to what you think is burnt ... their past actions? Them? And what you think is represented by the fire ("being burnt out") ... death? Hell? You mention a persons "soul" , where doe that fit in? I'm finding your explanation somewhat confusing.

Soul = believer
Works = past actions (?)
Fire = ?
Burned = ?

I cannot say whether or not I agree with the premise of your question if I cannot understand it. Perhaps you can rephrase...


JW

I'll try. One problem is that Paul was a Jew and didn't have a lot of Christian ideas. He thought in terms of a Last Days resurrection and (after judgement) messianic perfect rule on Earth.

Thus the works would be purged as if with fire and the sufficiently righteous would emerge to eternal life.

But we have to see that through Christian eyes and they think (mostly) in terms of judgement after death and getting into heaven, or going to Hell - which is not what Paul was talking about.

Thus, this earthly purging has to be seen as a heavenly one (outside the pearly turnstile of course) and I'm getting at the idea of burning out all the earthly and human sin and if there's enough Righteous soul left, what remains gets into heaven.

Is this rephrased enough?

So... you understand

Soul = believer
Works = what (?)
Fire = what (?)
Burned = what (?)/when (?)

[1213]

...
No. What you are really saying is that the Bible is wrong.

Please explain how?

[bjs1]

Then your analogy is patently false. Your analogy involves ONE kind of sin, my analogy involves ALL sin

A rapist can decide to no longer rape; one kind of sin. But he is still a sinner.

Hence the word analogy. An analogy compares things that are similar in some ways but different in others.

In this case, the similarity is that a recovering alcoholic is still himself – in fact, he might say he is even more himself – after he quit drinking. The difference is that this analogy addresses only one kind of sin, while Heaven would be a place where a person is free from all kinds of sin. So an accurate analogy would allow us to take the principle of the analogy (freedom from a specific sin) and apply it to the reality (freedom from all sin).

Let me elaborate... A thief has the free will to steal from someone. But maybe God stopped him. People pray all the time for God to do this or that. One could effectively argue 'freewill' here. If God stops a deemed 'bad' action, per petitionary or intercessory request, is God messing with the thief's freewill?

You can have complete "freewill" in Heaven. God just blocks all actions He deems bad.

That would not be anything like what Christians mean when we talk about heaven. You describe a place where a person is filled with all kinds of evil desires, but impotent to act upon them and eternally frustrated by a lack of freedom in practice. That strikes me as a lot closer to Hell than Heaven.

[bjs1]

If you cannot choose to do something other than what is good, then you cannot genuinely choose good.

Deeming something as good is very subjective. But that aside, where is the problem in not being able to carry out actions that are demonstrably bad?

It is only a problem if we want a person to be able to choose good actions. A person who has never been able to do anything other than what is good cannot actually be good. It would reduce the person to a tool, and only the one using the tool is good or bad.

A hammer might hit a nail or miss the nail, but we don’t blame the hammer. It is the person wielding the hammer who has or lacks true aim.

If a person lives in such a way that they never decide to do anything bad, how can they know that it is purely their free will choice, or if they have been prevented from making that decision?

We currently choose both bad and good, and we still can’t know if we have free will or not. We can trust that our experience of making choices is genuine, or we can believe that it is not.

Similarly, a person who only chooses only good can ultimately believe that his choices are his own, or he can reject that belief. Though perhaps if he had past experience choosing between good and evil then that experience would allow him to judge if his current flawless choices are his own or not.

[POI]

Then your analogy is patently false. Your analogy involves ONE kind of sin, my analogy involves ALL sin

A rapist can decide to no longer rape; one kind of sin. But he is still a sinner.

Hence the word analogy. An analogy compares things that are similar in some ways but different in others.

In this case, the similarity is that a recovering alcoholic is still himself – in fact, he might say he is even more himself – after he quit drinking. The difference is that this analogy addresses only one kind of sin, while Heaven would be a place where a person is free from all kinds of sin. So an accurate analogy would allow us to take the principle of the analogy (freedom from a specific sin) and apply it to the reality (freedom from all sin).

You seem to be failing to see the problem... The Bible states that all humans are sinners. --- That no human is without sin. This means humans are inherently sinful. If any human decides to stop drinking, all humans are still sinners all-the-same. So no, your analogy fails.

Thus, since humans will no longer sin in heaven, what does God have to change about the human? humans apparently cannot do it on their own Further, why can't He just do this for everyone?

Let me elaborate... A thief has the free will to steal from someone. But maybe God stopped him. People pray all the time for God to do this or that. One could effectively argue 'freewill' here. If God stops a deemed 'bad' action, per petitionary or intercessory request, is God messing with the thief's freewill?

You can have complete "freewill" in Heaven. God just blocks all actions He deems bad.

That would not be anything like what Christians mean when we talk about heaven. You describe a place where a person is filled with all kinds of evil desires, but impotent to act upon them and eternally frustrated by a lack of freedom in practice. That strikes me as a lot closer to Hell than Heaven.

Okay, then let's start over anew....

God states all humans are sinners. No human is without sin. Humans will be a sinner until humans die. So after the human dies, and the human ascends to Heaven, the human no longer sins presumably... What changed? And why can't God just apply this change for all humans?

[brunumb]

If you cannot choose to do something other than what is good, then you cannot genuinely choose good.

Deeming something as good is very subjective. But that aside, where is the problem in not being able to carry out actions that are demonstrably bad?

It is only a problem if we want a person to be able to choose good actions. A person who has never been able to do anything other than what is good cannot actually be good. It would reduce the person to a tool, and only the one using the tool is good or bad.

What is wrong with people only choosing to do good things, or not. There are degrees, by the way, and not everything is necessarily deemed good without it being bad. That said, one has to assume that everyone in heaven is never able to do anything other than what is good. So, again, what's the problem?

[brunumb]

If a person lives in such a way that they never decide to do anything bad, how can they know that it is purely their free will choice, or if they have been prevented from making that decision?

We currently choose both bad and good, and we still can’t know if we have free will or not. We can trust that our experience of making choices is genuine, or we can believe that it is not.

Similarly, a person who only chooses only good can ultimately believe that his choices are his own, or he can reject that belief. Though perhaps if he had past experience choosing between good and evil then that experience would allow him to judge if his current flawless choices are his own or not.

The things is that we can't know for sure, so what is the problem? If I am choosing not to do things that are demonstrably bad, I don't really care if it comes from me or it is an imposed restriction. Surely we are all better off as a result. And, I don't feel like a robot because I believe that it comes from within me and not from some unknown to me external source.

[TRANSPONDER]

Can you provide the reference ? I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation and application of Paul's (?) words and will need to check the context.


Thanks


JW

I cor. 3. 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This does require some interpretation .... the image here is of the works of a believer if they are not up the heavenly standard being burned out so the soul is fit to be saved. ....

Okay, so your interpretation is that when Paul refers to " work" he is refering to the past action of a believer? That is what I take it you think ... but I'm confused as to what you think is burnt ... their past actions? Them? And what you think is represented by the fire ("being burnt out") ... death? Hell? You mention a persons "soul" , where doe that fit in? I'm finding your explanation somewhat confusing.

Soul = believer
Works = past actions (?)
Fire = ?
Burned = ?

I cannot say whether or not I agree with the premise of your question if I cannot understand it. Perhaps you can rephrase...


JW

I'll try. One problem is that Paul was a Jew and didn't have a lot of Christian ideas. He thought in terms of a Last Days resurrection and (after judgement) messianic perfect rule on Earth.

Thus the works would be purged as if with fire and the sufficiently righteous would emerge to eternal life.

But we have to see that through Christian eyes and they think (mostly) in terms of judgement after death and getting into heaven, or going to Hell - which is not what Paul was talking about.

Thus, this earthly purging has to be seen as a heavenly one (outside the pearly turnstile of course) and I'm getting at the idea of burning out all the earthly and human sin and if there's enough Righteous soul left, what remains gets into heaven.

Is this rephrased enough?

So... you understand

Soul = believer
Works = what (?)
Fire = what (?)
Burned = what (?)/when (?)

How odd - I thought I'd replied to this last night...but it seems to have vanished...

So to repeat.

Great - we are in agreement here. The 'What is presumably an act of will by God to burn out all the sin from the applicant Christian standing at the gates (non- Christians need not apply) and the resultant tempered and tested soul is then fit to enter heaven. I believe that is the way Christians see the process of Judgement in today's dogma or doctrine.

So we get back to the point - when all the human sinfulness if burned out of the soul, is not everything that makes us human burned out and the resultant sinless residue is a mindless bubble of bliss floating about in heaven? In other words, the 'You' that remains is no longer You.