A Proof That God Does Not Exist

[RedEye]

Definitions
God is a non-contingent entity, ie. not dependent on anything or anyone else for existence.

Attributes of God: Independence
https://www.todayintheword.org/issues/2 ... y-matters/

Non-contingent - not dependent on, associated with, or conditioned by something else.

Non-contingent
https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... contingent

Entity - a thing with distinct and independent existence.

Syllogisms
P1: If an entity is composed of something then it is contingent (dependent) on that something.
P2: God is a non-contingent entity.
C1: God is not composed of something.

P3: Nothing is the complete absence of something.
P4: God is not composed of something (from C1).
C2: God is nothing.

P5: Nothing is indistinguishable from non-existence.
P6: God is nothing (from C2).
C3: God does not exist.

Support for Premises
P1 - Self-evident.
P2 - By definition.
P3 - By definition.
P4 - From C1.
P5 - Self-evident (by definition).
P6 - From C2.

Can anyone find a flaw with this logical argument? I don't think there is much doubt that the argument is valid, ie. that the conclusions follow logically from the premises. The question is whether the argument is sound, ie. that the premises hold up to scrutiny. Therefore to invalidate this argument you must nominate a premise and then carefully explain why we cannot accept it. Only by invalidating a premise can you invalidate the argument as a whole. (Unless you can prove that one of the syllogisms has a conclusion which does not follow from its premises).

[marco]

God is energy.

If we use the appropriate units for c, then the equation, E =mc^2 becomes E = m

That would make God both weighty and energetic. But perhaps that's not too far from the truth.

[JehovahsWitness]

God is energy.

If we use the appropriate units for c, then the equation, E =mc^2 becomes E = m

That would make God both weighty and energetic. But perhaps that's not too far from the truth.

I'm no scientist but doesnt the m stand for matter? A component of the physical realm...thus something that can be "weighed" / measured?

In any case I don't pressume to know what type of energy God is (I'm pretty sure it's not electronic or gravitational which are energies in our carbon based system) nor if in the spiritual non-physical that energy equals what we call "weight" ... I can only propose what the bible presents namely an infinite self-contained source of self generating energy (Almighty for short).

Our friend Red claims that all "energy is a property of other things" perhaps that is so in our physical realm, which is a closed system (I'm not even sure about that it sounds backwards to me but I won't go to the wall on that )... At the most all that proves is that God cannot be part of the physical, that he must, if He exists, exist outside and independent of our closed system...which is neither rocket science nor news to most...

Claiming that the physical can be the only system that exists by using the laws that govern that system is imho rather like two goldfish attempting to use the dimensions of their goldfish bowl to prove the impossibility of an ocean. In short saying "... but such a thing could never fit in the bowl" is displaying a faulty premise that fails to comprehend what it is that one is trying to prove.

JW

[Willum]

[Replying to post 82 by JehovahsWitness]

Energy is vectorless, and without structure. It is defined by the matter making up its constraints.
If God is energy, then what makes up his constraints?

If he is all powerful energy, then E/c2 = m, and we should be see the mass from that infinite energy.

Good effort, though.

[marco]

I'm no scientist but doesnt the m stand for matter? A component of the physical realm...thus something that can be "weighed" / measured?

No, m stands for mass, a measurement of the amount of matter (or atoms) in a body. Weight varies with where we are and is dependent on gravity: mass and gravity combine to give weight, a vector quantity that therefore has magnitude and direction. Mass is just a plain quantity called a scalar. Energy and mass, though they have an equivalence, are measured in different units.

If we took light speed as being our unit of measurement, then with c = 1 unit, we would have E = m. Your contention that God is energy would imply he has mass and so is composed of atoms. Technically if he is not composed of atoms, he does not exist in our physical world, which needn't alarm any theist. That's taken for granted.

[JehovahsWitness]

Your contention that God is energy would imply he has mass and so is composed of atoms.

What typed of energy are you refering to? Energy in this universe or energy in the spritual universe?

Technically if he is not composed of atoms, he does not exist in our physical world....

I believe he does not exist in our physical world.... or universe. We call this other universe "heaven" think "string theory on crack"

[avalon]

Hello,

Think of shifting energies that are replaced with forces that compel the movement of sand dunes. Whenever order is established it is believed intelligent we wouldn't look at a mountain and admire its intellect, yet the further you look into the mountain such as how it raised up from the sea floor and still look further into it, there is a visible source of that we call it the matrix.

What is behind the matter giving shape and structure to the mountain such as the many atoms of the universe. Some ancient Greeks Plato and Socrates debated this endlessly before we even existed.

Socrates believed that atoms were everything and even humans do not exist except for the atoms that make us, which last beyond our natural life and absorb back into the sand dunes being ever compelled by the forces of nature.

The ancient Greek atomists theorized that nature consists of two fundamental principles: atom and void. Unlike their modern scientific namesake in atomic theory, philosophical atoms come in an infinite variety of shapes and sizes, each indestructible, immutable and surrounded by a void where they collide with the others or hook together forming a cluster. Clusters of different shapes, arrangements, and positions give rise to the various macroscopic substances in the world.

Plato said that consciousness was behind the matrix of that matter which is constructed by atoms. However the order of atoms is not visible and as such we cannot admire its beauty and if there is beauty, elegance and other virtues then surely the structure of it must be of intelligent design. Rather than randomly appearing without learning.

How if we are merely atoms can we ourselves have memory and learn if we are just merely the atoms that make all our constituent parts? There must be something behind the shifting atomic structure that is compelled as humans are compelled.

What purpose does a human become created to admire such elegance of nature?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 85 by JehovahsWitness]

What typed of energy are you refering to? Energy in this universe or energy in the spritual universe?

Heh, heh, that's the beauty of energy, E=mc2 regardless. So if God can effect the real world, spiritual energy or not, he must have mass.

Unless you don't believe that, in which case he is imaginary. Imaginary things can have any properties.

I believe he does not exist in our physical world.... or universe. We call this other universe "heaven" think "string theory on crack"

Well, with not reason to suspect this, except to justify a god,what is the point? God is hiding somewhere in order that it can't be shown he exists?

What is he, an idiot god? Cause that is a waste.

[RedEye]

You need to make your mind up. Are we discussing God or energy?

God is energy.

I have already explained that energy is a property of other things. There is no such thing as something being energy. Something can possess energy.

That's for you to prove. Just making the statement doesn't mean it so.

So why do you say such a thing cannot exist?

Because there are essentially only two forms of energy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#Forms

• In physics, energy is the quantitative property that must be transferred to an object in order to perform work on, or to heat, the object.
  
  The total energy of a system can be subdivided and classified into potential energy, kinetic energy, or combinations of the two in various ways. Kinetic energy is determined by the movement of an object -- or the composite motion of the components of an object - and potential energy reflects the potential of an object to have motion, and generally is a function of the position of an object within a field or may stored in the field itself.

[JehovahsWitness]

Because there are essentially only two forms of energy:

Don't you mean two forms of energy yet known to man?

Are you suggesting there are only two forms of energy in yet undiscovered dimensions in any alternative universes that may exist? Can you PROVE that there are only two forms of energy if a spiritual dimension does exist?

[RedEye]

Because there are essentially only two forms of energy:

Don't you mean two forms of energy yet known to man?

Of course. We have examined reality and that is what we have found. Do you know something which science does not know?

Are you suggesting there are only two forms of energy in yet undiscovered dimensions in any alternative universes that may exist? Can you PROVE that there are only two forms of energy if a spiritual dimension does exist?

What undiscovered dimensions?
What alternative universes?
What "spiritual" dimension?

You speak of things for which you have no knowledge. They are just imaginary concepts or idle conjecture. I am not obligated to respond to speculation and assertions without evidence. Such assertions can be dismissed without evidence.