Evidence for the Resurrection

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Goose

Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #1

Post by Goose »

In my opinion, when determining the truthfulness of Christianity virtually everything is secondary in importance to the resurrection of Jesus Christ (the Rez). Paul made this clear when he said in 1 Corinthians 15:14, "if Christ has not been raised, then our message means nothing and your faith means nothing." I believe the truthfulness of Christianity hangs primarily on the Rez.

I also believe there is a solid case for the Rez that meets a reasonable burden of proof for matters of history. Equal, at least, to that which we accept for other pivotal events in ancient history accepted as true and rarely questioned.

As indicated by the spectrum of the below quoted scholars and historians, I propose we can be reasonably certain some historical "facts" are probably true regardless of our philosophical predispositions. We can then look at theories that account for those facts.

The Methodology:

A "fact" shouldn't necessarily need to pass all of the listed criteria to be considered probable. Failing any one particular criterion does not necessarily make the fact false. Indeed very few, if any at all, ancient historical "facts" we rarely question would adequately pass all the requests of such a rigorous criteria as set out below. However, a fact that fails to pass a single criterion we would be justified in believing it to be improbable. Passing one or two should be sufficient to have the "fact" be at least considered probable. If a fact passes three I think we can be confident that it is very probable and so on. This methodology is not fool-proof of course as it is open to our biases and ultimately subjective to a degree. However, this seems to be the only way (I know of) to establish a reasonably objective treatment of evidence - i.e. pass the evidence through a standard set of criteria using a consistent methodology that can be applied to ALL ancient events. So, using criteria such as (but not limited to)...
  • 1. Eyewitness attestation
    2. Early attestation (the earlier the better - written during the lifetime of possible eyewitnesses is preferred)
    3. Multiple independent attestation (independent does not mean non-Christian, but rather independent from other sources)
    4. Enemy or neutral source attestation
    5. The Principle of Embarrassment (If it's embarrassing or harmful to the case it is very likely that it is authentic or actually happened. It's very unlikely to have been propaganda simply “made up”)
Marcus J. Borg, a liberal theologian and "fellow" of the Jesus Seminar wrote, "The logic is straightforward: if a tradition appears in an early source and in another independent source, then not only is it early, but it is also unlikely to have been made up." Marcus J. Borg and N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus (1999), p. 12.

Historian Paul Maier notes, "Many facts from antiquity rest on just one ancient source, while two or three sources in agreement generally render the fact unimpeachable." Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time: A Historian Looks a Christmas, Easter, and the Early Church (1991), p. 197.


As a side note, I’m confident we can reconcile alleged contradictions in the NT, demonstrate traditional authorship of the Gospels/Acts (i.g. The disciple Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew and so on. Just as we would for any other ancient document, see here ), and demonstrate the synoptics were written before 70AD. However, we'll forgo debate over the preceding to avoid rabbit trails and make it more of a challenge for the Rez theory. So, for the sake of argument in this thread we will assume:
  • 1. The Bible is errant and not inspired by God. We'll consider it merely a collection of ancient writings.
    2. The Gospels/Acts are technically anonymous and may or may not be eyewitness accounts.
    3. The Gospels and other Christian/non-Christian accounts contain minor errors and contradictions in secondary details.
    4. The Gospels/Acts were written after 70AD, but no later than 100AD.
    5. Mark was the first Gospel written. The authors of Luke and Matthew used some of Mark as a source for their Gospels.

We could submit many, but to start, here are 5 "facts" that should pass enough of the listed criteria to be considered probable:

FACT 1. Jesus’ crucifixion and death
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from the Apostle Paul - (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 2:15; 1 Corinthians 1:23, 2:2 and early creedal passages in 1 Corinthians 15:3 - ca. 50-60AD)
    b) Multiple attestation in all four Gospels and the Book of Acts (ca. 70-100AD)
    c) Enemy/neutral attestation from Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18:64 - 96AD)
    d) Enemy/neutral attestation from Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15:44 - ca. 115AD)
    e) Enemy/neutral attestation from Greek satirical writer Lucian (The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 - ca. 150AD)
    f) Enemy/neutral attestation from Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a - ca. 200AD)
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the humiliating suffering and death of a supposed Messiah and the Son of God (as well as Principle of Dissimilarity from Jewish anticipation of a military type leader in the Messiah).
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Lüdemann acknowledged, "Jesus' death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable." Gerd Ludemann, The Resurrection of Christ, pg 50.

The critical NT scholar and Jesus Seminar co-founder John Dominic Crossan wrote, "Jesus’ death by execution under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For, if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixion, we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus...We have, in other words, not just Christian witnesses but one major Jewish and one major pagan historian who both agree on three points concerning Jesus: there was a movement, there was an execution because of that movement, but, despite that execution, there was a continuation of the movement." John Dominic Crossan, Who Killed Jesus?, pg. 5

Crossan also said, "Despite the differences between the studied impartiality of Josephus and the sneering partiality of Tacitus, they agree on three rather basic facts. First, there was some sort of a movement connected with Jesus. Second, he was executed by official authority presumably to stop the movement. Third, rather than being stopped, the movement continued to spread. There remain, therefore, these three: movement, execution, continuation. But the greatest of these is continuation." John Dominic Crossan, The Essential Jesus, p. 7.

John P. Meier wrote, "For two obvious reasons practically no one would deny the fact that Jesus was executed by crucifixion: (1) This central event is reported or alluded to not only by the vast majority of NT authors, but also by Josephus and Tacitus...(2) Such an embarrassing event created a major obstacle to converting Jews and Gentiles alike...that the Church struggled to overcome..." (John P. Meier, "The Circle of the Twelve: Did It Exist during Jesus' Public Ministry?", Journal of Biblical Literature 116 [1997] p. 664–665).


FACT 2. The tomb was discovered empty.
  • a) Early attestation from Paul - he implies an empty tomb (1 Cor. 15:3-4)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (the very early Pre-Markan Passion source probably contained the empty tomb)
    c) The disciples were accused of stealing Jesus’ body by unbelieving Jews - indirect enemy confirmation that the tomb was empty (Matthew 28, Christian apologist Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho 108 - ca. 150AD; Christian apologist Tertullian De Spectaculis 30 - ca. 200AD)
    d) The principle of embarrassment applies to the empty tomb reported as having been discovered by women
    e) We have no record of Jesus’ corpse being produced only accusations that the disciples stole the body.
    f) Setting the stage for the empty tomb was the honourable burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimethea (another fact we could admit as number 6 - but won't as it isn't really necessary to do so). It is attested by all four Gospels. As well Paul mentions the burial of Jesus(1 Cor 15). It also is strengthened by the Principle of Embarrassment where a Jewish member of the council, rather than a disciple or family member, that condemned Jesus was reported as honourably burring Jesus. This would have been offensive to the disciples and as such is unlikely to be a fabrication.
Liberal theologian John A. T. Robinson commented on the burial of Jesus, "[it is] one of the earliest and best–attested facts about Jesus." John A. T. Robinson, The Human Face of God (1973), p. 131.

William Wand, a past Oxford University church historian wrote, "All the strictly historical evidence we have is in favour [of the empty tomb], and those scholars who reject it ought to recognize that they do so on some other grounds than that of scientific history." William Wand, Christianity: A Historical Religion? (1972), p. 93-94

NT critic D. H. Van Daalen wrote, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions." D.H. Van Daalen, The Real Resurrection(1972), p. 41.


FACT 3. The apostles sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and then appeared to them. So sincerely that some were willing to endure persecution and possibly even death because of this belief:

Claims of appearances to the disciples:
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from Paul (1 Cor. 15:4-8)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (even without the later addition of 16:9-20, early attestation in Mark's Gospel predicts the Rez and appearances in 8:31, 9:31, 10:34 and suggests there will be appearances made by Jesus 14:28, 16:6-7)
    c) Multiple attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 1-5, 10, 13, 17)
    d) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Tacitus (he may be inadvertently providing evidence that the apostles at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Annals 15:44 when he says, "...[Christianity] thus checked for the moment [by the crucifixion of Jesus], again broke out not only in Judea...")
    e) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Josephus (he may be reporting that the disciples at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Antiquities 18)
    f) The Principle of Dissimilarity applies to the notion of a man/Messiah resurrecting from the dead before the end of time was contrary to Jewish belief and therefore reduces the odds it was "made up."
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the evidence that some disciples at the first instance did not believe but had doubts that Jesus was alive (Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:36-38, John 20:24-25).



Persecution and death of some disciples:
  • a) Early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 12 - death of James brother of John)
    b) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5 - ca. 95AD)
    c) Attestation from Ignatius (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 3:2-3 - ca. 110AD)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9 - ca. 110AD)
    e) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (ca. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 - ca. 200AD)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Contra Celsum 2:56,77 - ca. 230-250AD)
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Ludemann said, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus' death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ." Gerd Ludemann, What Really Happened to Jesus? A Historical Approach to the Resurrection, (1995) p. 80. (It should be noted Ludemann believes these were visions)

Paula Fredriksen, a sceptical historian and scholar of religious studies, said in an interview with Peter Jennings (ABC) entitled The Search for Jesus in July 2000, "I know in [the disciples] own terms what they saw was the raised Jesus. That's what they say and then all the historic evidence we have afterwards attest to their conviction that that's what they saw. I'm not saying that they really did see the raised Jesus. I wasn't there. I don't know what they saw. But I do know that as a historian that they must have seen something."



FACT 4. Paul, an enemy and persecutor of the church (Acts 8:3, 1 Cor. 15:9, Gal. 1:13) was transformed and became a prolific apostle because of his belief that a risen Jesus appeared to him. He was persecuted and reported as martyred.

Appearances of Jesus to Paul and his conversion:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul himself (1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1, Phil. 3)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 9, 22, 26)
Paul’s suffering/martyrdom:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul for his suffering (2 Cor. 11, Phil. 1)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from Book of Acts (ch. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 23)
    c) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9:2)
    e) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 and also quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (c. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:25:8)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Commentary on Genesis as quoted by Eusebius in EH 3:1)
FACT 5. James, brother of Jesus (Mark 6:3) and sceptic of His claims before the appearance of Jesus to him, was transformed and became a leader in the Church in Jerusalem. He was reported as martyred.
  • a) Principle of Embarrassment applies as Jesus' own family and brother James were described as sceptical prior to appearances (multiply attested - Matthew 13:57, Mark 3:21, 6:3-4, John 7:4-5)
    b) Jesus appeared alive to James after His death (early and enemy attestation from Paul - 1 Cor. 15:7)
    c) James is later described as an apostle by Paul(Gal 1:19) and leader in the early church in Jerusalem (Gal 2:9,12 and Acts 15)
    d) Suffered and martyred - Enemy/neutral attestation from Josephus (ca. 96AD - Antiquities 20), further multiple attestation from Hegesippus (ca. 160AD - as quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:23), and Clement of Alexandria (ca. 180-200AD as quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:1).

Note that none of these 5 facts are supernatural or hard to believe on their own. They are all well attested with early and multiple sources. By any reasonable historical methodology these should be considered solid facts. Keep in mind on their own each fact presented does not build a strong case for the Rez. However, it is as a collective unit we must consider the evidence. We are looking for the best explanation that accounts for ALL the evidence. I posit the theory that God resurrected Jesus from the dead best accounts for ALL the evidence and combines explanatory power and scope given the context of Jesus' life and the claims made of Him and by Him.

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?


Additional considerations and requests:
1. Persons who side with the weight of evidence, what the evidence suggests, and cogent arguments supported by good evidence could be described as taking a rational position. We would be justified in deeming "irrational" a position that denies evidence with out good reason and opposes strong arguments to side with weak unsupported arguments. On this, we can all agree.

2. As history deals more with degrees of probability rather than absolute certainty I would suggest the following. A single theory that has explanatory scope and power, given the context of surrounding events, and accounts for ALL the evidence should be considered more probable over a compilation of several theories stacked upon one another in an ad hoc manner. Especially if those ad hoc theories are speculation rich and evidence poor.

3. Please supply the methodology/criteria for questioning any one of these 5 facts (or any other evidence one wishes to refute or admit for consideration). We can then apply this methodology to other ancient historical facts. This will help us determine if the objection has credibility or is merely stemming from a bias against either the supernatural or Christianity. Simply making the objection, for example, that we cannot trust anything written by a Christian because they were biased is very problematic. Applying that overly simplistic criterion to the rest of ancient history would call almost all of it into question (even most of modern history).

I'll look forward to reading the responses. O:)

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Post #81

Post by stevencarrwork »

Goose wrote:
stevencarrwork wrote:Some religious lunatics , some of whom claimed to have gone to Heaven, started a religion.
Yes, but why?

Who can say?

Why did person X fall in love with person Y 2,000 years ago?

Why did people join the Essenes?

Why did a lunatic who claimed to have gone to Heaven suddenly think Jesus was alive , and made of heavenly material, although his body had returned to the dust of the earth?


It is lost in the midst of times.


But let us account for ALL the data.

Why did people convert to Jesus-worship in Corinth and still scoff at the idea that God would choose to raise a corpse?

Why was the church in Thessalonia worried about their fellow Christians who had become corpses?

One person claims to have gone to Heaven and to have had revelations.


But even when Christians ask him direct, he can give no eyewitness details of what a resurrected body is like, either from his experience or that of others.

People in one church simply scoff at the idea of a corpse rising, while another church is really worried about the fate of corpses.

Even a Christian book like Acts says early Christians like Stephen had visions of a resurrected Jesus that nobody around them could see.

And neither Peter nor James wrote one about seeing a resurrected body.

And no non-Christian source even registers a belief by Christians in corpses rising for many decades.

Evidence?

As big, fat zeros go, that is the biggest fattest zero of evidence I have ever seen.

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Post #82

Post by stevencarrwork »

GOOSE
If the writer of Acts is just making it up and reports only a spiritual encounter for Paul this shows de-evolution not evolution in the story.

CARR
In other words, Acts never reports Paul seeing a corpse of Jesus that had risen from the grave.

Acts claims the body of Jesus disappeared into the sky.

Just like the Golden Plates of Joseph Smith also conveniently disappeared.

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Post #83

Post by MrWhy »

Goose wrote:
Goose wrote: Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?
MrWhy wrote:The age of the text, and absence of non-biblical corroboration makes the evidence very light weight. The weight of the evidence is reduced to null when you consider the extraordinary nature of the claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In face of such an extraordinary claim, the evidence you present is less plausible than some other explanations.
If we take everything into context historically speaking, the amount and quality of evidence we have compared to other events of the time is actually, I think, impressive for Christianity. I would even venture to say it IS extraordinary. So, the call for Extra Ordinary evidence becomes very subjective and ultimately impossible to implement. The bar can arbitrarily be raised to suit ones presuppositions. What is extra ordinary for me is not for you and vice versa. That's why I propose we use a standard methodology and not simply dismiss evidence that supports a supernatural claim on the sole basis that it supports a supernatural claim or is supernatural in nature. There should be no reason for one to object to this unless they have a presupposition toward the supernatural.

Your standard methodology would give credibility to any claims of magic, miracle, voodoo, or witchcraft. I suggest another methodology. All such claims require proof. At least until a couple of events classified as supernatural become reclassified as natural through a proof process. Those could serve as precedents that make other supernatural claims less suspect.
goose wrote:
MrWhy wrote:We have better evidence of alien spaceships and abductions than we have of a resurrection...
Yes, you and Cmass are in agreement that there seems to be evidence for aliens.
You left out an important part of that paragraph. That makes it a very misleading quote. A little unethical? Here's the full paragraph, and the last sentence or two clearly means there are better explanations.

"We have better evidence of alien spaceships and abductions than we have of a resurrection. There were/are living eyewitnesses interviewed. Photos and radar images. Visual sightings by experienced pilots. Yet, hardly any serious analyst or scientist thinks alien visitors is the best explanation for this evidence. Do you?"

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Post #84

Post by stevencarrwork »

Goose wrote:
stevencarrwork wrote:t;]Why did people convert to Jesus-worship and scoff at the idea of God choosing to raise a corpse?
I could care less. The important thing is what did those who knew Christ believe. Later converts weren't in a position to know the truth.
Goose simply could not care less about the truth.

Early Christian converts were clearly not converted by tales of corpses rising from the grave.

Goose's attitude - 'Who cares?'

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Post #85

Post by stevencarrwork »

Goose wrote:Sure he does "...was buried, he was raised..." The Greek word used for buried is thapto - "A primary verb; to celebrate funeral rites, that is, inter: - bury." (Strong's). Jewish burial customs were to place the body in a tomb of sorts(see John 11:38 for an example and here for more). I said this in an earlier post. If I were to say I went to bed last night and rose up this morning. It's implied my bed is now empty. That's a no-brainer.
And also no miracle.

Paul says that the body which came out was not the body which was planted.

Paul says the body that was planted was just a seed which was dead.

If you went to bed last night, and a different body got up, leaving your dead body as a seed from which the 'spiritua' body emerged (as plants emerge from seeds)....

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Post #86

Post by stevencarrwork »

Mark’s Gospel has none of the birth stories of Luke.

So Mark has Jesus family as sceptical, while Luke has Mary knowing she is carrying her Lord and Saviour and has the cousin of Jesus leaping for joy in the womb. (What idiocy Christians have written…..)

If Luke’s Gospel is true, then how could the family of Jesus have been sceptical, especially as they had 30 years of seeing the literally Christ-like, sin-free behaviour of Jesus, already exhibited when he was just 12.

Goose says this was 'sibling rivalry'. (He just made that up, of course. He needed to say something, so he thought for a bit and then made up the sibling rivalry)

How ludicrous then that the cousin of Jesus leapt for joy in the womb, if there was such 'sibling rivalry'.

Meanwhile, Matthew’s Gospel has many holy men rising from their graves and appearing to ‘many’ in Jerusalem. And nobody else writes about such an amazing event, witnessed by ‘many’

Even after that the Jews don’t believe, and early Christian converts are baffled by the whole concept of corpses rising from graves, even when so many corpses allegedly rose from graves.

Christianity? Professional wrestling has more credibility.

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Post #87

Post by The Duke of Vandals »

Jumping back to page 5...

Goose:

You opened your reply to me by mentionining that you were looking at all the evidence. To be frank, there is none. What we have in the case of the resurrection are a set of claims; unsupported claims being used to prop up other unsupported claims. The empty tomb is no more evidence Jesus existed than the fortress of solitude evidences Superman. The alleged accounts of the disciples may as well be the words of Lois Lane or Lex Luthor. We simply don't have enough evidence to conclude they existed and considerable evidence suggesting they're invented.

You went on to allege I had begged the question and presented the following:
  • Sceptic: Show me some evidence for your supernatural claim.
    Christian: Ok, here it is, (see the OP)...
    Sceptic: I don't accept that evidence because it is a supernatural claim.
    Christian: #-o
This is, in fact, a straw man. No skeptic I know of dismisses the supernatural a priori. We discount the supernatural because what you call supernatural claims I see as simply being unsupported scientific claims. Furthermore, your second line should read "Christian: Okay. here are other unsupported claims that attempt to support the original unsupported claims."

Understand that, as a skeptic, I apply my skepticism uniformly. I do not create special pleadings as Christians do. More on that later.
I'm not asking anyone to accept the claim at face value. I'm suggesting we use a standard methodology to look at the claim. In fact, if you read the OP again, not one of the 5 facts I've presented is a supernatural claim.
To put it bluntly, I find this line of reasoning dishonest coming from an individual who identifies himself as a Christian. To some degree, you believe the Rez happened or you wouldn't be a Christian. To 180 and say, "I'm not interested in the Supernatural parts" is disingenuous. It would be like me saying, "I'm an atheisst, but when I pray to god I ask him (insert the blank)." Your reaction to such a claim should be what!?

The next problem with your argument is that you're not at all doing what you claim. You're attempting to downplay the supernatural aspect of the Rez myth and treat it like an historical event... but for evidence, you're pointing to the people & testimonies of individuals who very clearly believed they'd experiened something Supernatural. If you were honest about "looking for the explanation that has explanatory power, scope and accounts for all the evidence" you wouldn't be using five claims as evidence.

You'd start from a blank slate. Assume you know nothing of the Rez and look at the big picture. Would you look at Scientology the same way you look at Christianity? Would you assume there was some bieng called Xenu who populated the planet with humans?... or would you instead do the honest thing: look at Scientology as something created by a group of people to start a new religion.

Why not do the same for Christianity?
If you'd like to pass the evidence for the claims in the Iliad through my methodology in the OP, that's fine by me.
Actually, let's try something. Let's see what else gets through your criteria:

UFO's:

1. Eyewitness attestation - Check. We've got plenty.
2. Early attestation (the earlier the better - written during the lifetime of possible eyewitnesses is preferred) - Check again. Plenty of recorded interviews of people who saw things within days of their alleged happenings.
3. Multiple independent attestation (independent does not mean non-Christian, but rather independent from other sources) - Check. People all over the world have claimed to have seen "grays".
4. Enemy or neutral source attestation - Plenty of neutral sources willing to say there's life on other planets.
5. The Principle of Embarrassment (If it's embarrassing or harmful to the case it is very likely that it is authentic or actually happened. It's very unlikely to have been propaganda simply “made up”) - Plenty of people have risked embarrassment to tell their UFO tales.

5 for 5. By your own logic, it's acceptable to believe in UFO's. Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster also pass this test in the same manner.

I'm sorry, Goose, but your five criteria are critically flawed. They assume too much. I'll revise them in the next post.

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Post #88

Post by The Duke of Vandals »

Here are a revised set of criteria:

1.1 Eyewitness accounts of believable phenomenon.

Believable phenomenon simply means we require more evidence for claims which we know to be false at face value. i.e. "Alexander the Great had an army" is a believable phenomenon whereas "Alexander the Great had no army because he could fly and shoot lasers from his eyes" is not believeable. We need further evidence before we can entertain such a claim.

1.2 Evidence of eyewitnesses.

It's easy to invent an eyewitness by simply writing "So and so saw such and such." We need evidence the eyewitnesses exist. Any compelling evidence eyewitnesses are fabricated greatly diminishes the chances the claim is true.

1.3 Motivation of eyewitnesses.

Assuming eyewitnesses exist, why are they relating their tale? If they did not exist, why were they invented?

2. Physical evidence.

This broad category covers quite a bit... from artifacts to locations. It's very often a requirement for eyewitness accounts of unbelievable phenomenon.

3. Motivation / ulterior motives.

Similar to 1.3, is there a compelling reason for any individuals to fabricate the event in question? Who stands to gain from it and why? If there is an ulterior motive for the claims made, then the claim is that much less believeable.



In the case of the rez, we have eyewitness accounts from people who likely didn't exist of events that are too unsupported to be taken seriously. We haven't a shred of physical evidence. No tomb. No cross. No Roman records. No artifacts of any sort. Nada. Nothing. We have, in the seventh decade of the first century, a stong need amongst Jews for a new branch of Judaism that will cause people to want to adhere to it even if they're being persecuted. It's very obvious the gospels are meant to start a religion, not record actual events.

So, no. It isn't reasonable to believe the rez took place or that Jesus existed. What is reasonable is that a new religion spread amongst the disheartened Jews of the 0070's based on Jewish / pagan / Roman mythology and a handful of rabble rousing rabbis from earlier in the century. It's reasonable to believe that these first Christians convinced their followers through a combination of emotional appeals (avoidance of guilt, hope, etc.) that one of these rabble rousers had actually been the literal messiah.* It's rational to believe this small cult was endorsed by Constantine for purely political reasons. Constantine was in a power struggle to become emperor and in declaring himself a Christian (safe in Gaul / Brittania where there were no Christians) he gained a gurilla force ready to wreak havoc for him in the name of their god. When Constantine won, he institutionalized the fabrication from a few centuries earlier.

The rest is history.

The irony being that first century luminaries such as Philo of Alexandria weren't aware Jesus existed, second century Christians were unconcerned with Jesus' personhood, but 21st century Christians are (somehow) convinced this magic godman appeared 2000 years ago.

All hail the power of early childhood indoctrination.

*Note also that many first and second century Christians were blithely unconcerned about Jesus' personhood and believed the son of god was simply the Logos of the father. See Athenagoras' "A Plea for the Christians" from the second half of the second century for evidence.

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Post #89

Post by TMMaria »

The Duke of Vandals wrote:
We discount the supernatural because what you call supernatural claims I see as simply being unsupported scientific claims.
No...you're right. You with the unbelieving mind would not be able to see what we can see with the eyes of faith. While you place so much faith into only things that can be explained by science...we see enough evidence and accept there are events which are above the laws of nature. We with the eyes of faith in God do see the effects in abundance far exceeds the power of natural forces, which takes place instantaneously without the means or processes which nature employs in our life. Do you think God would leave us orphan...to be always wondering about those miracles of the two thousand years long ago and not having anything today to confirm and strengthen our belief? No, He's involve in our everyday lives...and knows even the hair that fall from our head. He makes His presnece known...in our reasoning... in our seeing the odds against evil things crushing on us on all sides in this life are always turning out favorably...in our witnessing the power of praying, the healing power of love on the broken hearts...in our seeing Higher Strength helps break the chains of addictions...we know God is with us.

We can only smile and be sympathetic and pity our unbelieving brothers and sisters to have to go through life accepting and seeing only things limited to what science can explain. Wouldn't we know it, the Lawgiver of those laws of nature Himself change the rules as He wish...but there are those still too much into the letters of the laws to not see the Lawgiver Himself.

Beto

Post #90

Post by Beto »

TMMaria wrote:
The Duke of Vandals wrote:
We discount the supernatural because what you call supernatural claims I see as simply being unsupported scientific claims.
No...you're right. You with the unbelieving mind would not be able to see what we can see with the eyes of faith.
"I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that isn't based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. And who, looking at Northern Ireland or the Middle East, can be confident that the brain virus of faith is not exceedingly dangerous?" Richard Dawkins

"Faith" may have more or less dangerous strains, I guess.
TMMaria wrote:Do you think God would leave us orphan...to be always wondering about those miracles of the two thousand years long ago and not having anything today to confirm and strengthen our belief? No, He's involve in our everyday lives...and knows even the hair that fall from our head. He makes His presnece known...in our reasoning... in our seeing the odds against evil things crushing on us on all sides in this life are always turning out favorably...in our witnessing the power of praying, the healing power of love on the broken hearts...in our seeing Higher Strength helps break the chains of addictions...we know God is with us.
"Stop telling God what He can do." Niels Bohr
TMMaria wrote:We can only smile and be sympathetic and pity our unbelieving brothers and sisters to have to go through life accepting and seeing only things limited to what science can explain.
"Philosophy has no end in view save truth; faith looks for nothing but obedience and piety." Baruch Spinoza

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