Regards,
mrmufin
WCJD? What Could Jesus Do?
Moderator: Moderators
WCJD? What Could Jesus Do?
Post #1I saw one of those WWJD (what would Jesus do?) bumper stickers not too long ago, and I got to thinking... What Jesus would do would be dependent upon what Jesus could do, so I wondered, what could Jesus do, anyway? Was he educated? Could he read and write? Did he read Socrates and Plato? Is there anything at all in his own pen? Could he solve for x in terms of y or predict the next lunar eclipse? Did he bother to keep any sort of journal or maybe sign autographs? Just curious...
Regards,
mrmufin
Regards,
mrmufin
Post #11
If "God chose to be limited by coming in the form of a human being," then what are the extent of those limitations? I cheerfully admit that I have no biblical nor historical expertise to bring to the table on the questions that I've put forth. I do strongly suspect that 2,000 years ago, literacy rates were such that it was not uncommon for individuals to lack the capacity to read, write, perform basic arithmetic, etc. The curious lack of writings directly attributable to Jesus Christ would be entirely consistent with illiteracy, wouldn't it?GreenLight311 wrote:mrmuffin: props for a great question. Jesus Christ is God, but we sometimes forget that God chose to be limited by coming in the form of a human being.
Forgive my biblical and historical lack of knowledge on this topic, but if "dating periods" are agreed upon, what are the agreed upon periods, and how do they relate to the lifespan of Christ?GreenLight311 wrote:The dating of the NT books are always being debated. Most agree upon dating periods though.
Are there any non-biblical, contemporary accounts which document, in whole or in part, the life of Jesus Christ? If so, what are the accounts and from when do they date?GreenLight311 wrote:Also: you make the NT books seem historically unreliable. There are countless other historical books less reliable than the New Testament, but too many people don't have any problems with those books.
Would this type of testimony be admissable as evidence in a modern court of law, or might it be tossed out and labeled hearsay?GreenLight311 wrote:Lastly, the books of the NT - even if they weren't written by eyewitnesses, they were written by people that spent their lives with the eyewitnesses. Mark and Luke had a large role in the evangelistic movement with Paul, Peter, and the other Apostles. Mark and Luke recorded what the eyewitnesses said. That is nearly as good as an eyewitness account, especially considering the great accuracy with which these two gospels agree.
Regards,
mrmufin
Post #12
Well, I'm a student of the Urantia Book revelation printed in 1955. Jesus' whole life was revealed in that rervelation from birth to death so I know a lot about his childhood but being that the UB is considered heracy by the church I don't normaly talk about it but I will give you some high lights:
1) Jesus was five years old in August of this year, and we will, therefore, refer to this as his fifth (calendar) year of life. In this year, 2 B.C., a little more than one month before his fifth birthday anniversary, Jesus was made very happy by the coming of his sister Miriam, who was born on the night of July 11. During Page 1358 the evening of the following day Jesus had a long talk with his father concerning the manner in which various groups of living things are born into the world as separate individuals. The most valuable part of Jesus' early education was secured from his parents in answer to his thoughtful and searching inquiries. Joseph never failed to do his full duty in taking pains and spending time answering the boy's numerous questions. From the time Jesus was five years old until he was ten, he was one continuous question mark. While Joseph and Mary could not always answer his questions, they never failed fully to discuss his inquiries and in every other possible way to assist him in his efforts to reach a satisfactory solution of the problem which his alert mind had suggested.
2) Though Joseph was now assuming the direct responsibility for Jesus' intellectual and religious education, his mother still interested herself in his home training. She taught him to know and care for the vines and flowers growing about the garden walls which completely surrounded the home plot. She also provided on the roof of the house (the summer bedroom) shallow boxes of sand in which Jesus worked out maps and did much of his early practice at writing Aramaic, Greek, and later on, Hebrew, for in time he learned to read, write, and speak, fluently, all three languages.
3) Joseph's first thought was to tell Jesus that the earthquake had been caused by God, but a moment's reflection admonished him that such an answer would immediately be provocative of further and still more embarrassing inquiries. Even at an early age it was very difficult to answer Jesus' questions about physical or social phenomena by thoughtlessly telling him that either God or the devil was responsible. In harmony with the prevailing belief of the Jewish people, Jesus was long willing to accept the doctrine of good spirits and evil spirits as the possible explanation of mental and spiritual phenomena, but he very early became doubtful that such unseen influences were responsible for the physical happenings of the natural world.
4) For three years÷until he was ten÷he attended the elementary school of the Nazareth synagogue. For these three years he studied the rudiments of the Book of the Law as it was recorded in the Hebrew tongue. For the following three years he studied in the advanced school and committed to memory, by the method of repeating aloud, the deeper teachings of the sacred law. He graduated from this school of the synagogue during his thirteenth year and was turned over to his parents by the synagogue rulers as an educated "son of the commandment"÷henceforth a responsible citizen of the commonwealth of Israel, all of which entailed his attendance at the Passovers in Jerusalem; accordingly, he attended his first Passover that year in company with his father and mother.
5) While Jesus continued to make enviable progress at school, all did not run smoothly for either parents or teachers. He persisted in asking many embarrassing questions concerning both science and religion, particularly regarding geography and astronomy. He was especially insistent on finding out why there was a dry season and a rainy season in Palestine. Repeatedly he sought the explanation for the great difference between the temperatures of Nazareth and the Jordan valley. He simply never ceased to ask such intelligent but perplexing questions. His third brother, Simon, was born on Friday evening, April 14, of this year, A.D. 2.
6) But trouble was again stirred up at school when one of the more backward pupils discovered Jesus drawing a charcoal picture of the teacher on the floor of the schoolroom. There it was, plain as day, and many of the elders had viewed it before the committee went to call on Joseph to demand that something be done to suppress the lawlessness of his eldest son. And though this was not the first time complaints had come to Joseph and Mary about the doings of their versatile and aggressive child, this was the most serious of all the accusations which had thus far been lodged against him. Jesus listened to the indictment of his artistic efforts for some time, being seated on a large stone just outside the back door. He resented their blaming his father for his alleged misdeeds; so in he marched, fearlessly confronting his accusers. The elders were thrown into confusion. Some Page 1367 were inclined to view the episode humorously, while one or two seemed to think the boy was sacrilegious if not blasphemous. Joseph was nonplused, Mary indignant, but Jesus insisted on being heard. He had his say, courageously defended his viewpoint, and with consummate self-control announced that he would abide by the decision of his father in this as in all other matters controversial. And the committee of elders departed in silence.
7) At ten years old He entered the advanced school of the synagogue in August. At school he was constantly creating trouble by the questions he persisted in asking. Increasingly he kept all Nazareth in more or less of a hubbub. His parents were loath to forbid his asking these disquieting questions, and his chief teacher was greatly intrigued by the lad's curiosity, insight, and hunger for knowledge.
8) On the first day of the week, March 20, A.D. 7, Jesus graduated from the course of training in the local school connected with the Nazareth synagogue. This was a great day in the life of any ambitious Jewish family, the day when the first-born son was pronounced a "son of the commandment" and the ransomed first-born of the Lord God of Israel, a "child of the Most High" and servant of the Lord of all the earth.
1) Jesus was five years old in August of this year, and we will, therefore, refer to this as his fifth (calendar) year of life. In this year, 2 B.C., a little more than one month before his fifth birthday anniversary, Jesus was made very happy by the coming of his sister Miriam, who was born on the night of July 11. During Page 1358 the evening of the following day Jesus had a long talk with his father concerning the manner in which various groups of living things are born into the world as separate individuals. The most valuable part of Jesus' early education was secured from his parents in answer to his thoughtful and searching inquiries. Joseph never failed to do his full duty in taking pains and spending time answering the boy's numerous questions. From the time Jesus was five years old until he was ten, he was one continuous question mark. While Joseph and Mary could not always answer his questions, they never failed fully to discuss his inquiries and in every other possible way to assist him in his efforts to reach a satisfactory solution of the problem which his alert mind had suggested.
2) Though Joseph was now assuming the direct responsibility for Jesus' intellectual and religious education, his mother still interested herself in his home training. She taught him to know and care for the vines and flowers growing about the garden walls which completely surrounded the home plot. She also provided on the roof of the house (the summer bedroom) shallow boxes of sand in which Jesus worked out maps and did much of his early practice at writing Aramaic, Greek, and later on, Hebrew, for in time he learned to read, write, and speak, fluently, all three languages.
3) Joseph's first thought was to tell Jesus that the earthquake had been caused by God, but a moment's reflection admonished him that such an answer would immediately be provocative of further and still more embarrassing inquiries. Even at an early age it was very difficult to answer Jesus' questions about physical or social phenomena by thoughtlessly telling him that either God or the devil was responsible. In harmony with the prevailing belief of the Jewish people, Jesus was long willing to accept the doctrine of good spirits and evil spirits as the possible explanation of mental and spiritual phenomena, but he very early became doubtful that such unseen influences were responsible for the physical happenings of the natural world.
4) For three years÷until he was ten÷he attended the elementary school of the Nazareth synagogue. For these three years he studied the rudiments of the Book of the Law as it was recorded in the Hebrew tongue. For the following three years he studied in the advanced school and committed to memory, by the method of repeating aloud, the deeper teachings of the sacred law. He graduated from this school of the synagogue during his thirteenth year and was turned over to his parents by the synagogue rulers as an educated "son of the commandment"÷henceforth a responsible citizen of the commonwealth of Israel, all of which entailed his attendance at the Passovers in Jerusalem; accordingly, he attended his first Passover that year in company with his father and mother.
5) While Jesus continued to make enviable progress at school, all did not run smoothly for either parents or teachers. He persisted in asking many embarrassing questions concerning both science and religion, particularly regarding geography and astronomy. He was especially insistent on finding out why there was a dry season and a rainy season in Palestine. Repeatedly he sought the explanation for the great difference between the temperatures of Nazareth and the Jordan valley. He simply never ceased to ask such intelligent but perplexing questions. His third brother, Simon, was born on Friday evening, April 14, of this year, A.D. 2.
6) But trouble was again stirred up at school when one of the more backward pupils discovered Jesus drawing a charcoal picture of the teacher on the floor of the schoolroom. There it was, plain as day, and many of the elders had viewed it before the committee went to call on Joseph to demand that something be done to suppress the lawlessness of his eldest son. And though this was not the first time complaints had come to Joseph and Mary about the doings of their versatile and aggressive child, this was the most serious of all the accusations which had thus far been lodged against him. Jesus listened to the indictment of his artistic efforts for some time, being seated on a large stone just outside the back door. He resented their blaming his father for his alleged misdeeds; so in he marched, fearlessly confronting his accusers. The elders were thrown into confusion. Some Page 1367 were inclined to view the episode humorously, while one or two seemed to think the boy was sacrilegious if not blasphemous. Joseph was nonplused, Mary indignant, but Jesus insisted on being heard. He had his say, courageously defended his viewpoint, and with consummate self-control announced that he would abide by the decision of his father in this as in all other matters controversial. And the committee of elders departed in silence.
7) At ten years old He entered the advanced school of the synagogue in August. At school he was constantly creating trouble by the questions he persisted in asking. Increasingly he kept all Nazareth in more or less of a hubbub. His parents were loath to forbid his asking these disquieting questions, and his chief teacher was greatly intrigued by the lad's curiosity, insight, and hunger for knowledge.
8) On the first day of the week, March 20, A.D. 7, Jesus graduated from the course of training in the local school connected with the Nazareth synagogue. This was a great day in the life of any ambitious Jewish family, the day when the first-born son was pronounced a "son of the commandment" and the ransomed first-born of the Lord God of Israel, a "child of the Most High" and servant of the Lord of all the earth.
Post #13
Thank you, Colter, for your thoughtful and extensive response. I'll have to read through your posts regarding the Urantia Book a bit more. Thus far, you're the first to assert any information about the childhood and education of Jesus; however, if the UB was published in 1955, what are its sources?
One of the components in my original post was in consideration of the gospel of Matthew: the birth of Jesus is, in short, a recognized--if not monumental--event. There's the star of Bethlehem, the three wise men, the gold, frankencense, myrrh, etc. If, at the time of his birth, Jesus Christ was recognized as the King of Kings and so forth, wouldn't it be a safe assumption that his life --all of it-- would be very well documented in "real time"? I liken this to being a child born of a US President or into a royal family: like it or not, your life is being documented. To the best of my (albeit limited) knowledge, the accounts of Jesus weren't compiled until after his death... and that pulls some skeptometer deflection. As well, I'm unaware of any contemporary accounts of his life from timely, non-biblical sources. This, to me, is sorta like trying to find contemporary, timely accounts of the architect Howard Roark outside of The Fountainhead: maybe there are none because the character is fictional.
Regards,
mrmufin
One of the components in my original post was in consideration of the gospel of Matthew: the birth of Jesus is, in short, a recognized--if not monumental--event. There's the star of Bethlehem, the three wise men, the gold, frankencense, myrrh, etc. If, at the time of his birth, Jesus Christ was recognized as the King of Kings and so forth, wouldn't it be a safe assumption that his life --all of it-- would be very well documented in "real time"? I liken this to being a child born of a US President or into a royal family: like it or not, your life is being documented. To the best of my (albeit limited) knowledge, the accounts of Jesus weren't compiled until after his death... and that pulls some skeptometer deflection. As well, I'm unaware of any contemporary accounts of his life from timely, non-biblical sources. This, to me, is sorta like trying to find contemporary, timely accounts of the architect Howard Roark outside of The Fountainhead: maybe there are none because the character is fictional.
Regards,
mrmufin
Post #14
Origins of the Urantia Book.
Urantia is the Heavenly name of our planet earth, just one of 7 trillion inhabited planets within 7 superuniverses all evolving around the never begining never ending eternal isle of paridice, the geografic location of the first sousce and center, God the father.
DR William Saddler was a Psychiatrist author and debunker of Psychic phenomena, faith healing and general snake oil salespeople. While living in an apartment building, waiting for their home to be built in Chicago they came into contact with what has become known as "the sleeping" subject. Late one night a frantic neighbor awoke Dr. Saddler and his wife in the middle of the night saying that her husband was not breathing properly, was in a deep sleep and she could not wake him. The Dr. tried unsuccessfully to rouse the gentlemen who was still breathing erratically, but could not. His pulse was normal as well as his appearance. Soon he awoke suppressed to find neighbors in his bedroom. The next day a physical showed everything to be fine.
Several weeks went by and again the DR was summoned down to the gentleman's bed side and again he was breathing oddly but this time talking about some strange celesstrilal beings etc. Again he was awakened startled to find the Dr. in his bedroom.
As time passed this phenomenon grew more frequent and conversation was taking place between the Dr. and whoever or what ever was talking through the individual. A stenographer was brought in to record what was being said. The Dr. completely skeptical tried in vein to determine what the source of this could be in the individuals subconscious mind. The "Celestials" suggested the Dr. provide questions for them to answer. A group was formed to provide questions of different kinds, scientific, historic, theologic etc. The Dr. memorized 50 questions but did not tell the celestials what he wanted to ask. AT the next session 48 of the questions were answered without the Dr. saying anything.
The Forum as it became known then submitted over one thousand questions along the same lines. In the middle of the night the Dr. was again summoned to the residence of the "sleeping subject" but this time the gentlemen had written 468 pages of material all while asleep, with no memory writing, these were the answers to the 1000+ questions. There were I think 7 contact commissioners that would customarily sit in on these sessions, they would be summoned at all times of the night or day for these occurrences.
The Urantia Forum would meet weekly to study the papers that were coming through. There were members from all walks of life numbering 30-40 people at a time. Over the years there were over 400 people that came and went from the forum. Between 1911 and 1934 192 papers in all came through with the final being the Life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
The celestials would not allow the papers to be published until 1955 where upon the book was put into a trust which is charged with translations and dissemination. There are about 500,000 books out worldwide, they can be purchased at all the major book dealers, I buy them used on Amazon when I give them away for like $15 bucks. Their are study groups and such in most major cites.
other facts:
* The UB is NOT a religion
* The UB does not propose starting a new religion but rather sagest that all world religions could benefit from it's supernal teachings.
* Readers are from all walks of life, Atheist, Buddhist, Agnostics, Christians etc.
* Wherever the book came from it is the most profound compilation of cosmology, science, philosophy and spirituality ever written, bar none!
* All seekers of truth can benefit from the UB
Dr. Saddler remained skeptical in that skepticism was his nature up until the Jesus papers came through and more specifically the personality profiles of the 12 apostles when the Dr. concluded that this "sleeping subject" could not possibly know these intricacies of human personality.
The Parts of the Book
Part I
THE CENTRAL AND SUPERUNIVERSES
Sponsored by a Uversa Corps of Superuniverse Personalities acting by authority of the Orvonton Ancients of Days.
Part II
THE LOCAL UNIVERSE
Sponsored by a Nebadon Corps of Local Universe Personalities acting by authority of Gabriel of Salvington.
Part III
THE HISTORY OF URANTIA
These papers were sponsored by a Corps of Local Universe Personalities acting by authority of Gabriel of Salvington.
Part IV
THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF JESUS
This group of papers was sponsored by a commission of twelve Urantia Midwayers acting under the supervision of a Melchizedek revelatory director.
The basis of this narrative was supplied by a secondary midwayer who was onetime assigned to the superhuman watchcare of the Apostle Andrew.
http://www.urantia.org/papers/toc.html
Urantia is the Heavenly name of our planet earth, just one of 7 trillion inhabited planets within 7 superuniverses all evolving around the never begining never ending eternal isle of paridice, the geografic location of the first sousce and center, God the father.
DR William Saddler was a Psychiatrist author and debunker of Psychic phenomena, faith healing and general snake oil salespeople. While living in an apartment building, waiting for their home to be built in Chicago they came into contact with what has become known as "the sleeping" subject. Late one night a frantic neighbor awoke Dr. Saddler and his wife in the middle of the night saying that her husband was not breathing properly, was in a deep sleep and she could not wake him. The Dr. tried unsuccessfully to rouse the gentlemen who was still breathing erratically, but could not. His pulse was normal as well as his appearance. Soon he awoke suppressed to find neighbors in his bedroom. The next day a physical showed everything to be fine.
Several weeks went by and again the DR was summoned down to the gentleman's bed side and again he was breathing oddly but this time talking about some strange celesstrilal beings etc. Again he was awakened startled to find the Dr. in his bedroom.
As time passed this phenomenon grew more frequent and conversation was taking place between the Dr. and whoever or what ever was talking through the individual. A stenographer was brought in to record what was being said. The Dr. completely skeptical tried in vein to determine what the source of this could be in the individuals subconscious mind. The "Celestials" suggested the Dr. provide questions for them to answer. A group was formed to provide questions of different kinds, scientific, historic, theologic etc. The Dr. memorized 50 questions but did not tell the celestials what he wanted to ask. AT the next session 48 of the questions were answered without the Dr. saying anything.
The Forum as it became known then submitted over one thousand questions along the same lines. In the middle of the night the Dr. was again summoned to the residence of the "sleeping subject" but this time the gentlemen had written 468 pages of material all while asleep, with no memory writing, these were the answers to the 1000+ questions. There were I think 7 contact commissioners that would customarily sit in on these sessions, they would be summoned at all times of the night or day for these occurrences.
The Urantia Forum would meet weekly to study the papers that were coming through. There were members from all walks of life numbering 30-40 people at a time. Over the years there were over 400 people that came and went from the forum. Between 1911 and 1934 192 papers in all came through with the final being the Life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
The celestials would not allow the papers to be published until 1955 where upon the book was put into a trust which is charged with translations and dissemination. There are about 500,000 books out worldwide, they can be purchased at all the major book dealers, I buy them used on Amazon when I give them away for like $15 bucks. Their are study groups and such in most major cites.
other facts:
* The UB is NOT a religion
* The UB does not propose starting a new religion but rather sagest that all world religions could benefit from it's supernal teachings.
* Readers are from all walks of life, Atheist, Buddhist, Agnostics, Christians etc.
* Wherever the book came from it is the most profound compilation of cosmology, science, philosophy and spirituality ever written, bar none!
* All seekers of truth can benefit from the UB
Dr. Saddler remained skeptical in that skepticism was his nature up until the Jesus papers came through and more specifically the personality profiles of the 12 apostles when the Dr. concluded that this "sleeping subject" could not possibly know these intricacies of human personality.
The Parts of the Book
Part I
THE CENTRAL AND SUPERUNIVERSES
Sponsored by a Uversa Corps of Superuniverse Personalities acting by authority of the Orvonton Ancients of Days.
Part II
THE LOCAL UNIVERSE
Sponsored by a Nebadon Corps of Local Universe Personalities acting by authority of Gabriel of Salvington.
Part III
THE HISTORY OF URANTIA
These papers were sponsored by a Corps of Local Universe Personalities acting by authority of Gabriel of Salvington.
Part IV
THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF JESUS
This group of papers was sponsored by a commission of twelve Urantia Midwayers acting under the supervision of a Melchizedek revelatory director.
The basis of this narrative was supplied by a secondary midwayer who was onetime assigned to the superhuman watchcare of the Apostle Andrew.
http://www.urantia.org/papers/toc.html
Last edited by Colter on Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BeHereNow
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Post #15
mrmuffin:
[John 1: 49] Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
There are several other occurances.
I’ve never seen a discussion to explain why there were never any written words put down by Jesus, and I’ve been watching for a number of years.
Some of the contemporary followers of Jesus called him Rabbi, which is strong evidence that he was fully literate.The curious lack of writings directly attributable to Jesus Christ would be entirely consistent with illiteracy, wouldn't it?
[John 1: 49] Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
There are several other occurances.
I’ve never seen a discussion to explain why there were never any written words put down by Jesus, and I’ve been watching for a number of years.
A special transmission outside the scriptures;
Depending not on words and letters;
Pointing directly to the human mind;
Seeing into one''s nature, one becomes a Buddha.
Depending not on words and letters;
Pointing directly to the human mind;
Seeing into one''s nature, one becomes a Buddha.
Post #16
Jesus parents had been told in a dream that they would bear a son whom would be a child of promise. Certainly these parents were chosen for a lot of reasons not the least of which they would raise the boy in a normal environment not putting undo attention on him, or spoiling him.
Had Jesus left any writings they would surely become the source of fetish worship. Considering we have people finding the Virgin Marry on cheeses sandwiches which can be sold on ebay imagine what would have become of his writings or his carpentry.
It is said that pieces of his cross were around for a while. I think a church was built ontop of them.
Dose anyone else see the significance of three seers ir (wise men) from a far away country were told of the coming of Jesus and not the Jews????? BIG CLUE!!!!
Had Jesus left any writings they would surely become the source of fetish worship. Considering we have people finding the Virgin Marry on cheeses sandwiches which can be sold on ebay imagine what would have become of his writings or his carpentry.
It is said that pieces of his cross were around for a while. I think a church was built ontop of them.
Dose anyone else see the significance of three seers ir (wise men) from a far away country were told of the coming of Jesus and not the Jews????? BIG CLUE!!!!
Post #17
Colter wrote:
Everything Jesus did he did because it was the will of his father in heaven. He subjected himself to the will of the father even when it meant passing through the humiliation, torture and crucifixion.
Mr. Muffin wrote:
Okay, but I'm also wondering about other aspects of Jesus; say, from ages 0 thru 21 or so. Did he attend school at all? I get the impression that there was quite a bit about him that really is unknown, and quite likely, unknowable. Speaking of these aspects as the will of the father in heaven doesn't really help much since... well, since the father iwas in heaven and Jesus was the one on earth. Whether his actions were the will of the father or not really doesn't address my questions. Could he read and write? Could he solve quadratic equations by completing the square? Is there anything at all (in his own pen or that of others) which answers (or attempts to answer) these questions or describes him in any "practical" terms? If I read about other historical figures, from Epicurus to Thomas Paine to Richard Feynman to Jimmy Carter, information like this readily available. Why's it so scarce when it comes to Jesus?
Regards,
mrmufin
If you have read the beginning of the book of Luke, you can see that Jesus was actually a very bright person even from the young age of 12. Lets look at Luke 2:46-47......
"After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers."
so this verse shows that Jesus could keep up with the teachers of the law and the priests, even at the age of ten. imaging what he was capable of during his mature years.
And actually, information about Jesus isn't scarce at all. You have the Bible for example. the reason that it is a common belief that there is know info about Jesus is because people are scared to look at the Bible as a source of truth, they're scared that they may have to clean up their act and actually live a worthy and moral life.
Everything Jesus did he did because it was the will of his father in heaven. He subjected himself to the will of the father even when it meant passing through the humiliation, torture and crucifixion.
Mr. Muffin wrote:
Okay, but I'm also wondering about other aspects of Jesus; say, from ages 0 thru 21 or so. Did he attend school at all? I get the impression that there was quite a bit about him that really is unknown, and quite likely, unknowable. Speaking of these aspects as the will of the father in heaven doesn't really help much since... well, since the father iwas in heaven and Jesus was the one on earth. Whether his actions were the will of the father or not really doesn't address my questions. Could he read and write? Could he solve quadratic equations by completing the square? Is there anything at all (in his own pen or that of others) which answers (or attempts to answer) these questions or describes him in any "practical" terms? If I read about other historical figures, from Epicurus to Thomas Paine to Richard Feynman to Jimmy Carter, information like this readily available. Why's it so scarce when it comes to Jesus?
Regards,
mrmufin
If you have read the beginning of the book of Luke, you can see that Jesus was actually a very bright person even from the young age of 12. Lets look at Luke 2:46-47......
"After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers."
so this verse shows that Jesus could keep up with the teachers of the law and the priests, even at the age of ten. imaging what he was capable of during his mature years.
And actually, information about Jesus isn't scarce at all. You have the Bible for example. the reason that it is a common belief that there is know info about Jesus is because people are scared to look at the Bible as a source of truth, they're scared that they may have to clean up their act and actually live a worthy and moral life.
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Post #18
Axeplayer:
Not that he needs help, but his biblical knowledge on specifics is weak although his understandings on generalities is sound. You and I know that Jesus the child, adolescent, and even young adult is not discussed in the accepted books of the Bible.
Reference to his formative years are conspicuous in their absence. We have two or three references to let us know that Jesus did not wake up one day and realize he was the Christ. He studied his faith almost to a fault, you make that point and I will agree. Jesus lived 33 years but his ministry lasted less than ten by biblical accounts, and it would be difficult to show more than three years. There is much about Christ the Messiah but extremely little about Jesus the man, person.
The Bible is a source of religious inspiration and faith. It is not a book of science, not an explanation of the universe, and as a book of truth it barely equals the other holy books from other religions. On those frequent occasions when it differs from the other holy texts it is not possible to show that it is correct and they are wrong. It all comes down to faith.
I have read the bible cover to cover several times in several versions from the perspective of several denominations of Christianity. If you think I have missed something we can to discuss it.
I’m on mrmuffin’s side on this one.And actually, information about Jesus isn't scarce at all. You have the Bible for example. the reason that it is a common belief that there is know info about Jesus is because people are scared to look at the Bible as a source of truth, they're scared that they may have to clean up their act and actually live a worthy and moral life.
Not that he needs help, but his biblical knowledge on specifics is weak although his understandings on generalities is sound. You and I know that Jesus the child, adolescent, and even young adult is not discussed in the accepted books of the Bible.
Reference to his formative years are conspicuous in their absence. We have two or three references to let us know that Jesus did not wake up one day and realize he was the Christ. He studied his faith almost to a fault, you make that point and I will agree. Jesus lived 33 years but his ministry lasted less than ten by biblical accounts, and it would be difficult to show more than three years. There is much about Christ the Messiah but extremely little about Jesus the man, person.
The Bible is a source of religious inspiration and faith. It is not a book of science, not an explanation of the universe, and as a book of truth it barely equals the other holy books from other religions. On those frequent occasions when it differs from the other holy texts it is not possible to show that it is correct and they are wrong. It all comes down to faith.
I have read the bible cover to cover several times in several versions from the perspective of several denominations of Christianity. If you think I have missed something we can to discuss it.
Post #19
This gets me to wondering about the daily newspaper, it is really just a collection of writings by someone who heard what someone else said...juliod wrote: In fact, none of the books of the NT were written by anyone who actually saw Jesus. The entire documentation of the Christian religion is based on writings about what someone said about someone who saw Jesus.
mrmufin wrote:Forgive my biblical and historical lack of knowledge on this topic, but if "dating periods" are agreed upon, what are the agreed upon periods, and how do they relate to the lifespan of Christ?
from the synoptic GospelsJustin Martyr, after studying many contemporary Greek philosophies, converted to Christianity sometime before AD 130. He speaks of the Gospels as "memoirs of the apostles. (170) He says they were written "by apostles and those who followed them, (171) which matches the traditional ascription to two apostles (Matthew and John) and two followers (Mark of Peter, Luke of Paul). He quotes from or mentions matters found in each of the four Gospels, and apparently alludes to Mark's Gospel as Peter's memoirs. (172) It is generally agreed that the Gospels were written between 60 and 90 AD. Most scholars place the writing of John around 85 AD. They also believe that Mark was written before the other two gospels, Matthew and Luke, and the latter had access to Mark's writing before they wrote their own gospels in the early 60's A.D. This Triple Tradition was based on the material that was common between these three gospels.
Jesus died in 33 A.D. this would make the writings of the gospels around 27-57 A.D.
That would depend on the number of witnesses who could verify what was said and who said it. Two or more reliable witnesses would be accepted in a court of law if they testified to the same or similar comments made by an individual. Multiple witnesses would be more readily accepted by the court.Would this type of testimony be admissible as evidence in a modern court of law, or might it be tossed out and labeled hearsay? .
You may have a point, the culture of that time was an oral culture, not for lack a literacy per se, but for lack of adequate materials for writing and recording. Scrolls were the mode of the day, and very expensive and costly to preserve, consequently only the most important writing and legal documents were thus recorded. Most Jews of the day were literate in that they were taught how to read and write so that they could study the scriptures. It was not common for them to engage in that activity daily however.I do strongly suspect that 2,000 years ago, literacy rates were such that it was not uncommon for individuals to lack the capacity to read, write, perform basic arithmetic, etc. The curious lack of writings directly attributable to Jesus Christ would be entirely consistent with illiteracy, wouldn't it?
I cannot assert that they were a literate culture in the sense that you suggest, although I strongly suspect they were more so than you suggest. I will assert however, that the oral aspect of their culture trained them in such a way that the hearing and repeating of what was said was much more accurate than what we would see today. The 'telephone game' syndrome that we are familiar with today was much less a factor in that culture, as it is in contemporary oral cultures, as the operation of the society depends upon the accurate relating of what was said and heard.
Post #20
Not by my measure. The daily newspaper also contains, photographs, names and addresses of witnesses, citations of public record, etc. Additionally, even differing accounts of the same event generally happen in a timely manner with respect to the event. It is highly unlikely that any of the media sources would wait a decade (or two or three) to cover a "miraculous" event. While suspicions can be fairly cast on some journalists (the name Dan Rather comes to mind quickly), and the motives of commercial media veins are often more capitalistic than investigative, I'd say that the reliability of the daily newpaper is greater than that of the NT. Your mileage may vary.RevJP wrote:This gets me to wondering about the daily newspaper, it is really just a collection of writings by someone who heard what someone else said...juliod wrote: In fact, none of the books of the NT were written by anyone who actually saw Jesus. The entire documentation of the Christian religion is based on writings about what someone said about someone who saw Jesus.
Perhaps I'm misreading or misinterpreting the above citation, but I'm not sure how you deduce 27-57 AD from that source. If scholars agree that the Gospels (the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were written between 60 and 90 AD, I'm not sure how you arrive at a time frame of 27-57 AD. Even if we do assume a time frame of 27-57 AD, are there any non-biblical sources which corroborate the life --and even more specifically, the miracles-- attributed to Jesus Christ? If there were enough detractors from his message to have him crucified, I would think that their claims and concerns would be written down in some extrabiblical account(s).RevJP wrote:mrmufin wrote:Forgive my biblical and historical lack of knowledge on this topic, but if "dating periods" are agreed upon, what are the agreed upon periods, and how do they relate to the lifespan of Christ?from the synoptic GospelsJustin Martyr, after studying many contemporary Greek philosophies, converted to Christianity sometime before AD 130. He speaks of the Gospels as "memoirs of the apostles. (170) He says they were written "by apostles and those who followed them, (171) which matches the traditional ascription to two apostles (Matthew and John) and two followers (Mark of Peter, Luke of Paul). He quotes from or mentions matters found in each of the four Gospels, and apparently alludes to Mark's Gospel as Peter's memoirs. (172) It is generally agreed that the Gospels were written between 60 and 90 AD. Most scholars place the writing of John around 85 AD. They also believe that Mark was written before the other two gospels, Matthew and Luke, and the latter had access to Mark's writing before they wrote their own gospels in the early 60's A.D. This Triple Tradition was based on the material that was common between these three gospels.
Jesus died in 33 A.D. this would make the writings of the gospels around 27-57 A.D.
It would seem logical to me that things like walking on water, turning water to wine, undying and ascending, would certainly be very newsworthy events, even if scrolls, tablets (or whatever they wrote things on back then) were costly, limited to the elite classes, or the like. There are some circumstances that I can imagine wherein the miracles were not considered worthy of timely preservation, including:
1) People frequently walked on water, rose from the dead, performed miracles, etc. 2,000 years ago;
2) Jesus may have been a nifty guy, made some useful and/or philosophically profound statements and, perhaps, was crucified for his beliefs, but the miraculous stuff was fictional;
3) The whole thing is a myth, propogated and perpetuated by people with political and/or social motivations;
4) There simply are no contemporary, non-biblical sources which can corroborate the miraculous accounts mentioned in the Gospels. For whatever reason(s), only the authors of the Gospels saw fit to document the life of Jesus Christ, but none did so in a timely fashion.
Ah, but the reliability of witness testimony is assessed not only in their written words, but in matters of character, behavior, sobriety, sanity, etc. and subject to cross-examination. Thus, there is a difference between saying, "Here's a document wherein mrmufin wrote X, Y, and Z" and a court-orderd deposition drafted in a controlled environment. Show up drunk to make a deposition, and if you're not sent home, you can bet that any question of sobriety will be noted within that deposition.RevJP wrote:That would depend on the number of witnesses who could verify what was said and who said it. Two or more reliable witnesses would be accepted in a court of law if they testified to the same or similar comments made by an individual. Multiple witnesses would be more readily accepted by the court.mrmufin wrote:Would this type of testimony be admissible as evidence in a modern court of law, or might it be tossed out and labeled hearsay? .
Again, I'd suggest that undying, ascending, performing truly miraculous events would all qualify as "important writings." Yet for some reason, these accounts are tough to corroborate with timely, extrabiblical sources.RevJP wrote:You may have a point, the culture of that time was an oral culture, not for lack a literacy per se, but for lack of adequate materials for writing and recording. Scrolls were the mode of the day, and very expensive and costly to preserve, consequently only the most important writing and legal documents were thus recorded.mrmufin wrote: I do strongly suspect that 2,000 years ago, literacy rates were such that it was not uncommon for individuals to lack the capacity to read, write, perform basic arithmetic, etc. The curious lack of writings directly attributable to Jesus Christ would be entirely consistent with illiteracy, wouldn't it?
Do you think there's any way to confirm your assertions about the accuracy of oral tradition 2,000 years ago?RevJP wrote:I will assert however, that the oral aspect of their culture trained them in such a way that the hearing and repeating of what was said was much more accurate than what we would see today. The 'telephone game' syndrome that we are familiar with today was much less a factor in that culture, as it is in contemporary oral cultures, as the operation of the society depends upon the accurate relating of what was said and heard.
Regards,
mrmufin
