What if...

Argue for and against Christianity

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Lucifer
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What if...

Post #1

Post by Lucifer »

Please note that I'm not attempting to put down Christianity, and I don't mean to offend anyone, if you think my thoughts get too silly.

What if...

God is an amateur creator? If intelligent designer isn't true, and someone still needs to believe that God created us, then if he created some of us with vestigal limbs and poor design, it may indicate that he's just an amateur.

God is a bacterium? Let's see here...God's everywhere, bacteria are everywhere. God lives practically forever, and bacteria live very long. God created us, and we eventually came from bacteria; we somehow had a very, very distant ancestor that was a bacterium (ie, near the very "beginning").

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Amadeus
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Post #2

Post by Amadeus »

I can't agree that God is a bacterium. Bacteria came into existence at one point, but God has always existed.

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scorpia
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Post #3

Post by scorpia »

Let's see here...God's everywhere, bacteria are everywhere.
Bacteria aren't everywhere; They aren't in space.......... they aren't in the centre of the Earth.

Anyway, if there's an ameteur, would that not imply that there is an expert somewhere? Would that not imply that there is a better way to do things?
'Belief is never giving up.'- Random footy adverisement.

Sometimes even a wise man is wrong. Sometimes even a fool is right.

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BeHereNow
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Post #4

Post by BeHereNow »

Amadeus: Bacteria came into existence at one point
Easy to believe. Impossible to prove.
Scorpia: Bacteria aren't everywhere; They aren't in space.......... they aren't in the centre of the Earth.
Easy to believe. Impossible to prove.
Anyway, if there's an ameteur, would that not imply that there is an expert somewhere?
Not in this case. The one does not logically follow from the other. The “expert” might be a figment of someone’s imagination.

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Lucifer
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Post #5

Post by Lucifer »

If I remember correctly, there are certain bacteria that are capable of living in outer space.

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keltzkroz
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Post #6

Post by keltzkroz »

Lucifer wrote:
If I remember correctly, there are certain bacteria that are capable of living in outer space.


Now, I'll assume for now that the bacteria you mentioned are DNA-based life forms.

True. Extremophiles, as the name implies, can live in extreme conditions. However, there are limits to the conditions in which DNA-based life forms can survive. Organic molecules, like DNA, tend to degrade at elevated temperatures (some at higher temperatures that others), and eventually, all organic molecules are converted to their basic components (elements). I'm sure you will agree that a DNA-based life form cannot survive when all of the organic molecules in its system are converted back to elements. Chances are, DNA-based life forms are absent inside or on the surface of a star.

Now you might be thinking that I lack imagination when it comes to life forms, that there might be life forms out there that are not based on DNA. That might be the case, but if we look at the enormous diversity of life here on Earth, we still have to discover one which is not based on DNA. There are several 'Tree of Life' models put forth, and at least one of them takes this into account: several types of life forms came about on Earth, with only DNA-based life forms surviving to this day. This might be the case, or maybe only DNA-based life forms came about on Earth. We simply don't know.

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Lucifer
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Post #7

Post by Lucifer »

Under current conditions today, it wouldn't be possible for life forms besides DNA to form. Back then, there was no oxygen and enough energy supplied by the lightning to allow the necessary organic compounds to form, and their processes to function. Oxygen oxidizes those reactions, so there had to be no oxygen in order for those first reactions to occur. I've asked about why there was thought to be only one common ancestor (the tree branches go down to one stem) and I was told that the conditions back then only allowed certain life forms to exist, so perhaps it was possible that other life forms existed, but under those conditions, it wouldn't have been possible for them to survive. Like if you say a life-form that's not based on DNA may not degrade at the same temperature, perhaps it works or functions better at extreme temperatures, and poorer at moderate ones, then of course they wouldn't survive on Earth, even back then.

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aprilannies
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Post #8

Post by aprilannies »

This sounds similar to beliefs of Gnostics.

Gnostics believe that the world we live in was created by an imperfect deity, hence all the flaws. The true God to the Gnostics is ultimate reality beyond the created universe. I know I'm not being overly clear so I'll supply a quote, which I think will help clarify
The transcendent God does not create; the divine essence emanates, comes forth, from the unmanifest state into the manifest, making possible, further, more specific creation. ...

To use a homely analogy: A financier or landowner may decided to develop a piece of land. Most likely this person will not be directly involved in clearing and preparing the land or in planning or constructing the buildings. Architects, engineers, construction workers and others will do this work. Is unreasonable to think that the world might have been created in a similar manner? ... To elaborate on the analogy: If the landowner becomes less and less involved in the development and the chief architecht is inept and his workers are slovenly, then in spite of the good intentions of the owner the final results will be anything but perfect.

The architect was known in ancient Gnosticism as the Demiurge - from the Greek demiurgos, half maker, since he made only the form and not the inner life of the world. (p. 17)

from: Gnosticism: New Light on the Ancient Traditon of Inner Knowledge by: Stephan A. Hoeller
Gnostics believe that this Demiurge is one of two things. It either knows there is a higher power above it, but refuses to share with us because of it's own inner drive to power, or it is lost as many humans are, and does not recognize anything above itself.

I don't know a whole lot on Gnosticism, I'm still researching, anyone correct me if I have misspoke. :)

All the talk of 'the architect' makes me think of The Matrix. :)

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Lucifer
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Post #9

Post by Lucifer »

Well, Gnostism is new to me. If you see my usergroup, I'm agnostic. I kind of suggested the amateur creator for either humor or a suggestion, depending on how you look at it.

Gnostic

GNO/s/tic

Greek, noun

GNO- base; to know
-s/tic noun suffix; one who

"One who knows"

According to what you've told me, I'm not sure where they got the idea for that word.

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scorpia
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Post #10

Post by scorpia »

If I remember correctly, there are certain bacteria that are capable of living in outer space.
There are parts of space however where there is no matter. And if there's no matter, how can there be any DNA-based bacteria?
Scorpia: Bacteria aren't everywhere; They aren't in space.......... they aren't in the centre of the Earth.
Easy to believe. Impossible to prove.
Huh? Hasn't man gone to space already? Have they found bacteria all over space? Doesn't space mean emptyness?
This sounds similar to beliefs of Gnostics.
Doesn't it just?
I don't know a whole lot on Gnosticism, I'm still researching, anyone correct me if I have misspoke
The demuirge is also created by an ameteur :P

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