When did evil first appear?

[bernee51]

Based on the stories in Genesis (2:17) I'd say the first evil act was a lie, told by God to Adam & Eve, when he told them that eating from the tree of knowledge would bring about their death on that same day.

The serpent on the other hand told them the truth - that they would not die but gain knowledge of good and evil. The serpent was right of course but God still punished both the serpent and the first humans. Adam we are told later lived on to a ripe old age.

Now I know that some are going to say that the 'death' was spiritual, that the story needs to be interpreted correctly. My interpreation is that it is all myth - why should that be any less valid than the interpretion of a "True Christian"(TM) .

So when did evil first appear?

[snowman]

From Bernee51:

The command you refer to, I take it, was given by god. The tree of knowledge scenario I mentioned. As I pointed out god was less than honest with Adam and MsAdam. The serpent, however, was as up front as only a talking serpent can be.

Well that depends how you want to view it I suppose. Was God telling a lie? They didn't die the same day they disobeyed is your reasoning I suppose. And you cannot accept the 'spiritual' aspect of death here? Why?

Is nakedness shameful? Or just the realization of it?

Good question. I think both questions are explained in the epistles of the new testamant. Let me just say that, according to the story, they were naked. What comes to your mind as to this meaning? Do you have an opinion?

God, being omniscient, wouldn't have had to come visiting - he would have known all along. And Adam couldn't have hidden. How can you hide from omniscience?

I think you meant omni-present concerning his visit. And yes, since God is omniscient, then he didn't need to visit to know what happened. I guess you are understanding this in a very 'literal' manner? And yes, you cannot hide from the all-knowing, all-present and all-powerful creator. But do you really think this is the intended meaning? Most, if not all people I know, try to hide their shame.

Which one should I be quoting?

Your question deals with the 'christian' text. I was just anwering your comment to your opening question (statement of your last paragraph).

[bernee51]

Was God telling a lie?...And you cannot accept the 'spiritual' aspect of death here? Why?

Here is what he/she/it reputedly said...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Sounds pretty straight forward to me. Either god lied or he was wrong.

If god was referring to spiritual death or some other form of death...

...like banishment from the Garden is the equivalent of death, or

....you guys are now seperated from my in the spirit therefore you are spiritually dead, or

...you guys used to be immortal, now your not and one day you are gonna die...

...why didn't he say so?

Why leave it up to the descendents of his disobedient creations to 'interpret'? They couldn't even obey one little rule. All it has done is cause confusion. It would have been easy for god to tell it like it is.

Besides how are we to know who is going to have the "right " interpretation? And this was a simple little thing.

Look at all the dissent that interpretation of other aspects of the bible has caused.

Is nakedness shameful? Or just the realization of it?

I think both questions are explained in the epistles of the new testamant.

Who's interpretation?

Let me just say that, according to the story, they were naked. What comes to your mind as to this meaning? Do you have an opinion?

It could mean a few things.
They had no clothes on.
They were 'naked' in their protection from immortality.
They were 'naked' morally.
They were 'naked' in the real world, not living a protected existence in the GofE

More interpretation?

I think you meant omni-present concerning his visit. And yes, since God is omniscient, then he didn't need to visit to know what happened. I guess you are understanding this in a very 'literal' manner? And yes, you cannot hide from the all-knowing, all-present and all-powerful creator. But do you really think this is the intended meaning? Most, if not all people I know, try to hide their shame.

Omni-everything should cover all bases. Whichever it was, god should have known.

As for shame...

I have no problem at all with shame. In fact I think shame is a very good thing. Once we realise that many of our other emotions (anger, guilt etc) have their genesis in shame it can be very liberating.

Shame is an invitiation to change.

[seventil]

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Sounds pretty straight forward to me. Either god lied or he was wrong.

I've discussed this before. The actual meaning in the ancient texts is a bit different. It's not a translation error, it's just a different language that is hard to translate into our modern speech. I don't have any references right now (I can look if you want) - but the main jist of it is that what God meant by "thou shalt surely die" is that "thou shalt surely die (in God's eyes)". So, dying in Gods eyes meant becoming mortal. I don't think it's any more confusing than that.

[bernee51]

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Sounds pretty straight forward to me. Either god lied or he was wrong.

I've discussed this before. The actual meaning in the ancient texts is a bit different. It's not a translation error, it's just a different language that is hard to translate into our modern speech. I don't have any references right now (I can look if you want) - but the main jist of it is that what God meant by "thou shalt surely die" is that "thou shalt surely die (in God's eyes)". So, dying in Gods eyes meant becoming mortal. I don't think it's any more confusing than that.

As I said Seventil - it is all a matter of interpretation.