Power of Prayer in 1662

[juliod]

I'm sure everyone is enjoying the Diary of Samuel Pepys:

http://www.pepysdiary.com

But I wanted to point out a few entries that might be a good point of debate on this forum.

Here is his entry for Wednesday 15 January 1661/62 (the ambiguity of the year is due to the choice of 1 January or 1 April as the new year).

This morning Mr. Berkenshaw came again, and after he had examined me and taught me something in my work, he and I went to breakfast in my chamber upon a collar of brawn, and after we had eaten, asked me whether we had not committed a fault in eating to-day; telling me that it is a fast day ordered by the Parliament, to pray for more seasonable weather; it having hitherto been summer weather, that it is, both as to warmth and every other thing, just as if it were the middle of May or June, which do threaten a plague (as all men think) to follow, for so it was almost the last winter; and the whole year after hath been a very sickly time to this day. I did not stir out of my house all day, but conned my musique, and at night after supper to bed.

Here is the text of the proclamation:

Whereas His Majesty hath been pleased, by Proclamation, upon the Unseasonableness of the Weather, to command a general and public Fast, to be religiously and solemnly kept, within the Cities of London and Westm. and Places adjacent: It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, That the Lord Bishop of St. David’s is hereby desired to take the Pains upon him, to preach before the Lords of Parliament, on Wednesday the Fifteenth Day of this Instant January in the Forenoon, in the Abbey Church of Westm. being the accustomed Place where their Lordships have used to meet upon the like Occasion

They were seriously afraid that if the winter were too warm it would preceed a plague or pestilence, as indeed is probably likely.

Note this is not just "ceremonial deism" as we are used to when our modern governments hold prayers. They have a problem, and are seriosly taking action to avert it.

Pepys again makes reference to this subject on Sunday 26 January:

(Lord’s day). To church in the morning, and then home to dinner alone with my wife, and so both to church in the afternoon and home again, and so to read and talk with my wife, and to supper and to bed. It having been a very fine clear frosty day-God send us more of them!— for the warm weather all this winter makes us fear a sick summer. But thanks be to God, since my leaving drinking of wine, I do find myself much better and do mind my business better, and do spend less money, and less time lost in idle company.

His comment "God send us more of them!" is interesting because this was written in his private diary. His diary was kept in code. So the comment was not in any way a public show of piety, but must have been his genuine thoughts.

Now today, praying to change the weather would sound silly or childish even to most christians. We know why the weather happens, and if anyone would care to test it, it would be easily shown that prayer cannot alter it. Most praying christians today would say that weather is not the sort of thing you should pray for.

But that's the point of debate for this thread. The nature of the relationship between god and man changes with the changing of human knowledge and opinion. In 1662 they prayed for cold weather, obviously believing that it would work. It's not good enough to say that they were merely wrong. The actions that god takes, or is supposed to take, is determined by humans.

In other words, the god that christians imagine today is different from the god that they imagined in 1662. If god were not imaginary he would be the same three and a half centuries later. Right?

DanZ

[bernee51]

Now today, praying to change the weather would sound silly or childish even to most christians. We know why the weather happens, and if anyone would care to test it, it would be easily shown that prayer cannot alter it. Most praying christians today would say that weather is not the sort of thing you should pray for.

I'm not so sure about that DanZ. I seem to remember stories of christians praying during the last hurricane season for the storms not to strike them. It encouraged visions of Hurricane Frederick moving up and down the coast looking for a gap in the prayer barrier.

Many christian churches offer up prayers for rain in drought stricken areas. That said - it isn't restricted to christians - I know Hindus will ask the gods (they have a few more that the christians - so perhaps a better chance of success) to influence weather patterns.

But that's the point of debate for this thread. The nature of the relationship between god and man changes with the changing of human knowledge and opinion.

.

Only human knowledge can change - the god of christianity is a god from the agrarian age - he/she/it, the JCI god, cannot change - not that christians would want it to or believe it could change.

Many christians give the appearance that they are desperately trying to maintain a relationship that is more befitting of an agrarian society.

[juliod]

I seem to remember stories of christians praying during the last hurricane season for the storms not to strike them.

Well, yes, they do that, and claim it works, until you point out that it would be easy to verify the power of prayer in terms of changing the weather. Then they begin backtracking faster than a group of apostates at a nightclub.

Only human knowledge can change - the god of christianity is a god from the agrarian age - he/she/it, the JCI god, cannot change

That would be true, if god were real. But since he isn't, it is easy for society to change him. They merely imagine a different one.

I notice that there wasn't a rush of christians to explain away the changes in god between 1662 and now. They imagine god as they want him, and then imagine he has always been that way.

DanZ

[ST88]

Well, yes, they do that, and claim it works, until you point out that it would be easy to verify the power of prayer in terms of changing the weather. Then they begin backtracking faster than a group of apostates at a nightclub.

That's sort of the point, isn't it? The claim that prayer works is based on two assumptions -- 1) That the prayers will be answered, 2) That the ones doing the prayers are worthy enough to have their prayers answered.

- If the hurricane does not strike, then BAM! prayer works.
- If the hurricane does strike, then there was something wrong with the prayer or with the hearts of the people doing the praying.

It's sort of like flipping a coin and guessing heads every time. When heads comes up, God is smiling.

Only human knowledge can change - the god of christianity is a god from the agrarian age - he/she/it, the JCI god, cannot change

That would be true, if god were real. But since he isn't, it is easy for society to change him. They merely imagine a different one.

Sort of. Except that it would still be possible for people to mischaracterize and misinterpret an existing, unchanging God and get away with it. God has shown the capability to punish and reward without regard to piety and righteousness, so the fact that Pat Robertson hasn't been struck by lightning shouldn't necessarily tell us that God is either happy or unhappy with him.

[juliod]

Except that it would still be possible for people to mischaracterize and misinterpret an existing, unchanging God and get away with it.

I would go with that, for a religion (if there were any) that claimed that god was unknowable. But christianity in particular claims that it is easy to have a "relationship" with god, that he wants to "know" you, and that you can "communicate" with him. Then each generation imagines a different god. Absurd!

I notice that still no actual christians have jumped in here...

DanZ

[hannahjoy]

I don't know why you're assuming that Christians don't believe in praying about the weather anymore - we still do. Except my youth pastor used to say we shouldn't pray for good weather for an event, but to pray that we would choose the right day for the event.

The claim that prayer works is based on two assumptions -- 1) That the prayers will be answered, 2) That the ones doing the prayers are worthy enough to have their prayers answered.

- If the hurricane does not strike, then BAM! prayer works.
- If the hurricane does strike, then there was something wrong with the prayer or with the hearts of the people doing the praying.

You're missing something there - "no" is an answer too.

Hannah Joy

[bernee51]

I don't know why you're assuming that Christians don't believe in praying about the weather anymore - we still do. Except my youth pastor used to say we shouldn't pray for good weather for an event, but to pray that we would choose the right day for the event.

The claim that prayer works is based on two assumptions -- 1) That the prayers will be answered, 2) That the ones doing the prayers are worthy enough to have their prayers answered.

- If the hurricane does not strike, then BAM! prayer works.
- If the hurricane does strike, then there was something wrong with the prayer or with the hearts of the people doing the praying.

You're missing something there - "no" is an answer too.

Hannah Joy

Hi Hannah Joy

God can answer no...which is fair enough. Are you saying by this that god always answers prayers - it is just the the answer may be something the prayer does not want?

[juliod]

You're missing something there - "no" is an answer too.

But god doesn't say "no". He says "random".

If I pray to god to make me flip "heads" with a coin he says "yes" about 50% of the time and "no" about 50% of the time. He does not say "yes" consistently or "no" consistently.

The same thing is true for the weather. Prayer cannot change th weather, no matter what, to any extent greater than the normal uncertainty in a forcast. This can be easily proven.

I don't know why you're assuming that Christians don't believe in praying about the weather anymore - we still do. Except my youth pastor used to say we shouldn't pray for good weather for an event, but to pray that we would choose the right day for the event.

You've just said that you pray for the weather, but you don't. Which is it?

If we could change the weather through prayer, why would anyone ever die in a weather-related event? They could just pray the weather away. Doesn't happen, does it?


DanZ

[hannahjoy]

Are you saying by this that god always answers prayers - it is just the the answer may be something the prayer does not want?

Yes, and that should answer Dan's question.

[bernee51]

Are you saying by this that god always answers prayers - it is just the the answer may be something the prayer does not want?

Yes, and that should answer Dan's question.

So if god always answers prayers what s the use of praying?