Catholics are polythiests because their Saints are Gods.

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officer2002
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Catholics are polythiests because their Saints are Gods.

Post #1

Post by officer2002 »

Based on watching EWTN, having Catholic friends and co-workers I see no difference between the way Catholics act towards "Saints" and ancient Greeks act toward their "Gods".
They pray to their Saints/Gods.
They believe their Saints/Gods have power.
They pick a different Saint/God depending upon their circumstances or nature of their request.
They have physical statues of their Saints/Gods.
They name buildings after their Saints/Gods.

Is there a difference which I am missing?

Flail

Post #11

Post by Flail »

Slopeshoulder wrote:
A quick look at Wikipedia suggest that Devas are celestial being more akin to angels, and that they have much to do with nature.
Catholic saints are dead people, now in heaven. They have local and specific affiliations and identities (patron saint of X). So I think saints function more like local gods.

BTW, I've never met a catholic currently under the age of 70 who prays to a saint and asks intercession. (But maybe they are out there somewhere). But saints can be seen as exemplars, or as conduits. Itprovides a little slice of accessibility and concreteness for regular folk in an otherwise abstract, ephemeral and distant concept of God. I find it fascinating.
Don't Catholics worship 'Mary', and ask for 'her' intercession in bead prayer and other ritual practices? Is not the Pope a 'local God' to Catholics? In fact, within the hierarchy that is the Catholic Priesthood, couldn't Bishops and Cardinals be considered by Catholics as having Deva-like qualities or as 'lesser Gods'? Don't Catholic Priests possess some 'God-like qualities according to Catholic tradition as demonstrated via certain ritual practices and sacraments?

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Post #12

Post by Slopeshoulder »

Flail wrote:Slopeshoulder wrote:
A quick look at Wikipedia suggest that Devas are celestial being more akin to angels, and that they have much to do with nature.
Catholic saints are dead people, now in heaven. They have local and specific affiliations and identities (patron saint of X). So I think saints function more like local gods.

BTW, I've never met a catholic currently under the age of 70 who prays to a saint and asks intercession. (But maybe they are out there somewhere). But saints can be seen as exemplars, or as conduits. Itprovides a little slice of accessibility and concreteness for regular folk in an otherwise abstract, ephemeral and distant concept of God. I find it fascinating.
Don't Catholics worship 'Mary', and ask for 'her' intercession in bead prayer? Is not the Pope a 'local God' to Catholics? In fact, within the hierarchy that is the Catholic Priesthood, couldn't Bishops and Cardinals be considered by Catholics as having Deva-like qualities or as 'lesser Gods'?
Yes, these are folk practices and qualities ascribed among less educated and older catholics, for sure. And I do think praying to Mary et al for intercession is approved of. I'm against it, but for some people mary functions like the divine feminine and was a way to replace the pagan mother godess. I never really understood marion theology and devotion, it sort of gives me the creeps. But I do know that the strength of marion cults sort of freaked out the vatican and they were kind of compelled to elevate her to quasi divine status (assumption doctrine) by popular demand. I think they said it must be the holy spirit working. It's all very confusing. At least they were inclusive.

But I'm pretty sure ascribing minor godlike qualities to the clergy is really outdated and RARELY seen. My parents joke about how it was when they were young (say before vatican II). when the priests and nuns were seen as godlike. So yes, it is part of the culture of downscale and old catholicism, but it's faded and it's not the offiicial teaching. Just a medieval relic among the foolish. (But of course, podophile's used this alleged power against children.)

Flail

Post #13

Post by Flail »

Slopeshoulder wrote:
Flail wrote:Slopeshoulder wrote:
A quick look at Wikipedia suggest that Devas are celestial being more akin to angels, and that they have much to do with nature.
Catholic saints are dead people, now in heaven. They have local and specific affiliations and identities (patron saint of X). So I think saints function more like local gods.

BTW, I've never met a catholic currently under the age of 70 who prays to a saint and asks intercession. (But maybe they are out there somewhere). But saints can be seen as exemplars, or as conduits. Itprovides a little slice of accessibility and concreteness for regular folk in an otherwise abstract, ephemeral and distant concept of God. I find it fascinating.
Don't Catholics worship 'Mary', and ask for 'her' intercession in bead prayer? Is not the Pope a 'local God' to Catholics? In fact, within the hierarchy that is the Catholic Priesthood, couldn't Bishops and Cardinals be considered by Catholics as having Deva-like qualities or as 'lesser Gods'?
Yes, these are folk practices and qualities ascribed among less educated and older catholics, for sure. And I do think praying to Mary et al for intercession is approved of. I'm against it, but for some people mary functions like the divine feminine and was a way to replace the pagan mother godess. I never really understood marion theology and devotion, it sort of gives me the creeps. But I do know that the strength of marion cults sort of freaked out the vatican and they were kind of compelled to elevate her to quasi divine status (assumption doctrine) by popular demand. I think they said it must be the holy spirit working. It's all very confusing. At least they were inclusive.

But I'm pretty sure ascribing minor godlike qualities to the clergy is really outdated and RARELY seen. My parents joke about how it was when they were young (say before vatican II). when the priests and nuns were seen as godlike. So yes, it is part of the culture of downscale and old catholicism, but it's faded and it's not the offiicial teaching. Just a medieval relic among the foolish. (But of course, podophile's used this alleged power against children.)
I don't think there is any evidence that pedophile priests don't still use this alleged power. As to marion catholic theology, and given the 'all male review' nature of the Catholic Priesthood, I always thought Mary worship was just a way to pander to the female customer base for purposes of revenue.

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Post #14

Post by Slopeshoulder »

Flail wrote:
Slopeshoulder wrote:
Flail wrote:Slopeshoulder wrote:
A quick look at Wikipedia suggest that Devas are celestial being more akin to angels, and that they have much to do with nature.
Catholic saints are dead people, now in heaven. They have local and specific affiliations and identities (patron saint of X). So I think saints function more like local gods.

BTW, I've never met a catholic currently under the age of 70 who prays to a saint and asks intercession. (But maybe they are out there somewhere). But saints can be seen as exemplars, or as conduits. Itprovides a little slice of accessibility and concreteness for regular folk in an otherwise abstract, ephemeral and distant concept of God. I find it fascinating.
Don't Catholics worship 'Mary', and ask for 'her' intercession in bead prayer? Is not the Pope a 'local God' to Catholics? In fact, within the hierarchy that is the Catholic Priesthood, couldn't Bishops and Cardinals be considered by Catholics as having Deva-like qualities or as 'lesser Gods'?
Yes, these are folk practices and qualities ascribed among less educated and older catholics, for sure. And I do think praying to Mary et al for intercession is approved of. I'm against it, but for some people mary functions like the divine feminine and was a way to replace the pagan mother godess. I never really understood marion theology and devotion, it sort of gives me the creeps. But I do know that the strength of marion cults sort of freaked out the vatican and they were kind of compelled to elevate her to quasi divine status (assumption doctrine) by popular demand. I think they said it must be the holy spirit working. It's all very confusing. At least they were inclusive.

But I'm pretty sure ascribing minor godlike qualities to the clergy is really outdated and RARELY seen. My parents joke about how it was when they were young (say before vatican II). when the priests and nuns were seen as godlike. So yes, it is part of the culture of downscale and old catholicism, but it's faded and it's not the offiicial teaching. Just a medieval relic among the foolish. (But of course, podophile's used this alleged power against children.)
I don't think there is any evidence that pedophile priests don't still use this alleged power.
I think I said that they did. We agree. but it's an abuse, not a teaching, and hardly a belief anymore.
As to marion catholic theology, and given the 'all male review' nature of the Catholic Priesthood, I always thought Mary worship was just a way to pander to the female customer base for purposes of revenue.
Well that's one interpretation. I'm hardly marion in my inclinations, but I do think there's more to it than that. I know and respect how you feel about where revenue and funds should be going, but it's sorta silly IMO to claim the whole church thing is a self-conscious and purposeful scam.

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Post #15

Post by Goat »

Flail wrote:Slopeshoulder wrote:
A quick look at Wikipedia suggest that Devas are celestial being more akin to angels, and that they have much to do with nature.
Catholic saints are dead people, now in heaven. They have local and specific affiliations and identities (patron saint of X). So I think saints function more like local gods.

BTW, I've never met a catholic currently under the age of 70 who prays to a saint and asks intercession. (But maybe they are out there somewhere). But saints can be seen as exemplars, or as conduits. Itprovides a little slice of accessibility and concreteness for regular folk in an otherwise abstract, ephemeral and distant concept of God. I find it fascinating.
Don't Catholics worship 'Mary', and ask for 'her' intercession in bead prayer? Is not the Pope a 'local God' to Catholics? In fact, within the hierarchy that is the Catholic Priesthood, couldn't Bishops and Cardinals be considered by Catholics as having Deva-like qualities or as 'lesser Gods'?
I would say that it isn't 'worshiping' in the same sense as one would 'worship' a god, at least in their minds.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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