Why do Atheists have a significantly higher rate of Suicide?

[Shermana]

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article ... urnalID=13

According to the American Journal of Psychiatry, those who are religiously affiliated have a "significantly lower" rate of taking their own life.

Why do Atheists and those not religiously affiliated thus have a significantly higher rate? Is Society so overwhelmingly oppressive and religious that it causes the non-believers to want the fast way out? Do Atheists in general have a weaker will to live? Are religious people bullying them so they can't take it anymore? If so, why do countries like South Korea which are nearly 50% Atheist have one of the worst suicide rates? Is it just "part of their culture"?

Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members.

Now I know from personal experience at least, that Atheists having less contact with family members is not always (or usually) the result of being "shunned" by the religious members, but the result of the Atheist not wanting to be around the religious members. As for being "younger", it's the older folks have by far the highest suicide rate, so there's an anomaly in this variable. Does marriage prevent suicide? (You'd think from the anti-marriage rhetoric it's the opposite). If so, is there a corrolation with the tendency for Atheists to not get married?

[Clownboat]

spayne wrote:

... Not all churches teach that you can actually hear from God and that God wants to speak to you and share his love with you, and tell you how much he loves you. This is the foundation of Christianity, and unfortunately there is a large group of Christians that don't understand how a relationship with God works. Therefore, they get disppointed and lose faith rather easily because they haven't learned how to connect with God on an intimate level. Because when you have heard God speak to you about how much he loves you, and you have gotten a glimpse of the love he has for you, you won't want to ever leave or say a bad thing about God again.

Obviously, Christianity is a trained belief system and therefore the manner in which one comes to view 'God' is totally dependent upon how one is trained. As one who wasn't trained to a 'God' belief, I read the Gospels differently. To me Jesus' message was that a relationship with 'God' comes only thru relationships with others, particularly those in need and in pain and not with worship or some supposed, self serving relationship directly with 'God'.

If we would all turn away from our trained belief systems and our particular versions God and our concocted relationships with 'Him' and turned instead toward each other we might actually find the love of which you speak.

If there is a God, common sense and the teachings of Jesus would dictate that we find such a being and such an ideal in the suffering of our neighbors regardless of who or what they are, and not in anything churchy or selfishly directed.

Although Christianity pretends to be about others, it is only engrained lip service. Christianity is all about the self...me, me, me. Love me, heal me, save me, comfort me, forgive my sins, grant me eternal life etc etc...it's quite sick actually, when you consider how much the people down the street are suffering alone. Have you ever thought how many needy people you pass in your car on your way to being churchy every Sunday, to get your dose of self serving comfort?

I'll just say a prayer for them, then I can feel like I did something without actually having to do something.

I like Jesus's teachings, they seem pretty "love your neighborish" to me.
It's when Paul gets involved that Christianity seems to turn into an organization and becomes self serving.

I'm not so sure that if Jesus were alive today, that he would be a Christian.

[catalyst]

spayne wrote:

... Not all churches teach that you can actually hear from God and that God wants to speak to you and share his love with you, and tell you how much he loves you. This is the foundation of Christianity, and unfortunately there is a large group of Christians that don't understand how a relationship with God works. Therefore, they get disppointed and lose faith rather easily because they haven't learned how to connect with God on an intimate level. Because when you have heard God speak to you about how much he loves you, and you have gotten a glimpse of the love he has for you, you won't want to ever leave or say a bad thing about God again.

Obviously, Christianity is a trained belief system and therefore the manner in which one comes to view 'God' is totally dependent upon how one is trained. As one who wasn't trained to a 'God' belief, I read the Gospels differently. To me Jesus' message was that a relationship with 'God' comes only thru relationships with others, particularly those in need and in pain and not with worship or some supposed, self serving relationship directly with 'God'.

If we would all turn away from our trained belief systems and our particular versions God and our concocted relationships with 'Him' and turned instead toward each other we might actually find the love of which you speak.

If there is a God, common sense and the teachings of Jesus would dictate that we find such a being and such an ideal in the suffering of our neighbors regardless of who or what they are, and not in anything churchy or selfishly directed.

Although Christianity pretends to be about others, it is only engrained lip service. Christianity is all about the self...me, me, me. Love me, heal me, save me, comfort me, forgive my sins, grant me eternal life etc etc...it's quite sick actually, when you consider how much the people down the street are suffering alone. Have you ever thought how many needy people you pass in your car on your way to being churchy every Sunday, to get your dose of self serving comfort?

The message of Jesus was to love God with all of your mind, soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. He said that all of the "law and the prophets" (ie. the whole Bible) rested on this principle. He was also very clear that love of God is the foundation for being able to love people selflessly and sacrficially, in the way that God intended. He then modeled this kind of sacrifical love by serving, healing and eventually dying for those that he loved.

I would agree with you that some Christians seem to make their faith about themselves, as you stated. But there are countless Christians who are serving others out of their love for God and people. My church gave $34,000 in December alone to a ministry in Africa that supports farmers. I am involved in a ministry that makes fresh meals every week for people on the streets of Skid Row in Los Angeles. There are churches all over southern California who routinely send groups into Mexico to help poor families, battered women's shelters, and orphanges. And these types of churches are everywhere. In fact, if you were to tell me what community you live in, I guarantee you that, unless you live in Antarctica, I could find churches that are actively serving people in their community through their love of Jesus Christ. The list goes on and on. The fact of the matter is that there are Christians all over the world who are engaged in the process of loving God with all of your mind, soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. They are doing this because they have encountered God's love, and are passing that on to others.

I don't know if you realise it Spayne, but you have just "proven" Flail's point.

Catalyst.

[spayne]

spayne wrote:

... Not all churches teach that you can actually hear from God and that God wants to speak to you and share his love with you, and tell you how much he loves you. This is the foundation of Christianity, and unfortunately there is a large group of Christians that don't understand how a relationship with God works. Therefore, they get disppointed and lose faith rather easily because they haven't learned how to connect with God on an intimate level. Because when you have heard God speak to you about how much he loves you, and you have gotten a glimpse of the love he has for you, you won't want to ever leave or say a bad thing about God again.

Obviously, Christianity is a trained belief system and therefore the manner in which one comes to view 'God' is totally dependent upon how one is trained. As one who wasn't trained to a 'God' belief, I read the Gospels differently. To me Jesus' message was that a relationship with 'God' comes only thru relationships with others, particularly those in need and in pain and not with worship or some supposed, self serving relationship directly with 'God'.

If we would all turn away from our trained belief systems and our particular versions God and our concocted relationships with 'Him' and turned instead toward each other we might actually find the love of which you speak.

If there is a God, common sense and the teachings of Jesus would dictate that we find such a being and such an ideal in the suffering of our neighbors regardless of who or what they are, and not in anything churchy or selfishly directed.

Although Christianity pretends to be about others, it is only engrained lip service. Christianity is all about the self...me, me, me. Love me, heal me, save me, comfort me, forgive my sins, grant me eternal life etc etc...it's quite sick actually, when you consider how much the people down the street are suffering alone. Have you ever thought how many needy people you pass in your car on your way to being churchy every Sunday, to get your dose of self serving comfort?

The message of Jesus was to love God with all of your mind, soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. He said that all of the "law and the prophets" (ie. the whole Bible) rested on this principle. He was also very clear that love of God is the foundation for being able to love people selflessly and sacrficially, in the way that God intended. He then modeled this kind of sacrifical love by serving, healing and eventually dying for those that he loved.

I would agree with you that some Christians seem to make their faith about themselves, as you stated. But there are countless Christians who are serving others out of their love for God and people. My church gave $34,000 in December alone to a ministry in Africa that supports farmers. I am involved in a ministry that makes fresh meals every week for people on the streets of Skid Row in Los Angeles. There are churches all over southern California who routinely send groups into Mexico to help poor families, battered women's shelters, and orphanges. And these types of churches are everywhere. In fact, if you were to tell me what community you live in, I guarantee you that, unless you live in Antarctica, I could find churches that are actively serving people in their community through their love of Jesus Christ. The list goes on and on. The fact of the matter is that there are Christians all over the world who are engaged in the process of loving God with all of your mind, soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. They are doing this because they have encountered God's love, and are passing that on to others.

I don't know if you realise it Spayne, but you have just "proven" Flail's point.

Catalyst.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that I agreed with him?

My point was simply to say that not all Christians behave in the manner that was described....ie. that Christians are self serving. In fact, as I already stated, there are Christians all over the world who regularly serve their fellow human beings. And this is very much a part of the Christian life, as has been throughout history.

[catalyst]

spayne wrote:

... Not all churches teach that you can actually hear from God and that God wants to speak to you and share his love with you, and tell you how much he loves you. This is the foundation of Christianity, and unfortunately there is a large group of Christians that don't understand how a relationship with God works. Therefore, they get disppointed and lose faith rather easily because they haven't learned how to connect with God on an intimate level. Because when you have heard God speak to you about how much he loves you, and you have gotten a glimpse of the love he has for you, you won't want to ever leave or say a bad thing about God again.

Obviously, Christianity is a trained belief system and therefore the manner in which one comes to view 'God' is totally dependent upon how one is trained. As one who wasn't trained to a 'God' belief, I read the Gospels differently. To me Jesus' message was that a relationship with 'God' comes only thru relationships with others, particularly those in need and in pain and not with worship or some supposed, self serving relationship directly with 'God'.

If we would all turn away from our trained belief systems and our particular versions God and our concocted relationships with 'Him' and turned instead toward each other we might actually find the love of which you speak.

If there is a God, common sense and the teachings of Jesus would dictate that we find such a being and such an ideal in the suffering of our neighbors regardless of who or what they are, and not in anything churchy or selfishly directed.

Although Christianity pretends to be about others, it is only engrained lip service. Christianity is all about the self...me, me, me. Love me, heal me, save me, comfort me, forgive my sins, grant me eternal life etc etc...it's quite sick actually, when you consider how much the people down the street are suffering alone. Have you ever thought how many needy people you pass in your car on your way to being churchy every Sunday, to get your dose of self serving comfort?

The message of Jesus was to love God with all of your mind, soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. He said that all of the "law and the prophets" (ie. the whole Bible) rested on this principle. He was also very clear that love of God is the foundation for being able to love people selflessly and sacrficially, in the way that God intended. He then modeled this kind of sacrifical love by serving, healing and eventually dying for those that he loved.

I would agree with you that some Christians seem to make their faith about themselves, as you stated. But there are countless Christians who are serving others out of their love for God and people. My church gave $34,000 in December alone to a ministry in Africa that supports farmers. I am involved in a ministry that makes fresh meals every week for people on the streets of Skid Row in Los Angeles. There are churches all over southern California who routinely send groups into Mexico to help poor families, battered women's shelters, and orphanges. And these types of churches are everywhere. In fact, if you were to tell me what community you live in, I guarantee you that, unless you live in Antarctica, I could find churches that are actively serving people in their community through their love of Jesus Christ. The list goes on and on. The fact of the matter is that there are Christians all over the world who are engaged in the process of loving God with all of your mind, soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. They are doing this because they have encountered God's love, and are passing that on to others.

I don't know if you realise it Spayne, but you have just "proven" Flail's point.

Catalyst.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that I agreed with him?

My point was simply to say that not all Christians behave in the manner that was described....ie. that Christians are self serving. In fact, as I already stated, there are Christians all over the world who regularly serve their fellow human beings. And this is very much a part of the Christian life, as has been throughout history.

Oh I read your reply. The simple point you are not seeing is that anyone calling themselves a christian is so, for purely self serving reasons. Tell me Spayne, who else BUT you does the whole "asking for forgiveness/salvation" "save" when YOU ask for it?

Does YOUR asking for this salvation also mean that Joe Blogs down the road is too "saved"?

Even with the financial "efforts" it was "MY" church...donating x to another MINISTRY, rather than the job lot going directly to the farmers to do with it what they will.

DOING for other human beings when it IS selfless has ZIP to do with the me me me, my my my... stuff. If it were purely selfless, then your belief in bible jesus would NOT come into the equation to "JUST DO".

Certainly, there ARE multiple churches "doing" things, but there are ALWAYS strings attached. Tell me Spayne, in the meal effort you state you are involved in, does the meal come without a sermon attached?

BTW, the ministry on Skid Row in LA... WHY aren't they working to help people get OFF the streets, rather than preferring to just keep them there? Is it because as long as there ARE homeless people, the ministry will have more to bleat about, as to their "aid" to the homeless in the name of "JC"?

Catalyst.

[spayne]

The simple point you are not seeing is that anyone calling themselves a christian is so, for purely self serving reasons. Tell me Spayne, who else BUT you does the whole "asking for forgiveness/salvation" "save" when YOU ask for it?
Does YOUR asking for this salvation also mean that Joe Blogs down the road is too "saved"?

Every person is faced with the reality of having to make decisions about how they are going to live, what they believe, etc. Christianity is a unique worldview that is rooted in the Bible and the testimony of Jesus Christ. How is choosing to be a Christian anymore self serving than choosing to be an atheist or an agnostic?

Even with the financial "efforts" it was "MY" church...donating x to another MINISTRY, rather than the job lot going directly to the farmers to do with it what they will.

I'm not seeing your point here. Are you trying to suggest that the church is not genuinely serving people because they are giving to another organization? This happens with nonprofit organizations all of the time, and I have never heard of anyone being criticized because they weren't directly involved. Since the church can not physically be there to work directly with the farmers, they provide financial assistance to a local organization that does. Church members gave $34,000 in one month of donations last December, because they love God and they love people. My point with all of this is: how can that be construed as self-serving?

DOING for other human beings when it IS selfless has ZIP to do with the me me me, my my my... stuff. If it were purely selfless, then your belief in bible jesus would NOT come into the equation to "JUST DO".

Certainly, there ARE multiple churches "doing" things, but there are ALWAYS strings attached. Tell me Spayne, in the meal effort you state you are involved in, does the meal come without a sermon attached?

BTW, the ministry on Skid Row in LA... WHY aren't they working to help people get OFF the streets, rather than preferring to just keep them there? Is it because as long as there ARE homeless people, the ministry will have more to bleat about, as to their "aid" to the homeless in the name of "JC"??

The homeless ministry I am involved with has been operating for six years. In that time, we have never given a sermon to the people we serve because that is not the goal of the ministry. The mission is to build friendships and relationships with people who are experiencing homelessness. We serve a hot meal for an average of about 150 people. We also make about 100 sack lunches every week. There aren't any strings attached. We aren't sitting around patting ourselves on the back for our efforts. It's actually quite the opposite. We would all love to do more, but we are confronted with the reality of homelessness and what causes it: mental illness, drug addiction, alcoholism, chronic unemployment, broken family relationships, etc. In light of these limitations, which are often quite severe, we have done what we can to aid people in getting off the streets. This tends to happen one person at a time.

And again I would ask you: what is self serving about this ministry?

I already agreed with the allegation that many Christians are self-serving. This is obvious. I would hope that you could also agree with my point that there are many Christians who are not self serving. There are many Christians out there who are loving God and loving their neighbor as themselves. And if you would concede this point, then I think you must also consider my primary point as mentioned before: that God is altogether good and loving, and that in his great love for people he sent his son Jesus to be an expression of that love. This is what the Bible is about.

[catalyst]

The simple point you are not seeing is that anyone calling themselves a christian is so, for purely self serving reasons. Tell me Spayne, who else BUT you does the whole "asking for forgiveness/salvation" "save" when YOU ask for it?
Does YOUR asking for this salvation also mean that Joe Blogs down the road is too "saved"?

Every person is faced with the reality of having to make decisions about how they are going to live, what they believe, etc. Christianity is a unique worldview that is rooted in the Bible and the testimony of Jesus Christ. How is choosing to be a Christian anymore self serving than choosing to be an atheist or an agnostic?

You didn't actually answer the questions I asked, but rather wrote around them. I will ask again. Who else but YOU does YOU asking for salvation/forgiveness, "save"?

Another question. If you "chose" bible jesus".. for what reason DID you "choose"?

Also, one thing, I for one did not CHOOSE to be an atheist and I can near guarantee you that if you were to ask any other atheist, on this forum (or elsewhere), they would let you know it was not a choice for them either. (I cannot speak for any agnostic...as to choice vs no choice)

It's interesting to realise that the important things in life, whether good or bad, don't come down to CHOICE. (no not a self serving viewpoint btw, just reality..one that cannot be denied...ie NO CHOICE).


I wrote:

Even with the financial "efforts" it was "MY" church...donating x to another MINISTRY, rather than the job lot going directly to the farmers to do with it what they will.

Spayne replied:

I'm not seeing your point here. Are you trying to suggest that the church is not genuinely serving people because they are giving to another organization?

You are the one stating that the $34000 went to a Ministry in Africa to "help" farmers there. Help in what way may I ask? Do you even know?



Spayne wrote:

This happens with nonprofit organizations all of the time, and I have never heard of anyone being criticized because they weren't directly involved.

I know how NFP's work. I run one. The idea IS to be DIRECTLY INVOLVED. ALL the income, assets and surplus funds of the organisation must be used to achieve its objectives relating purely to the PURPOSE. Perhaps you are confusing the whole NFP with the concept of "charity" only.

Since the church can not physically be there to work directly with the farmers, they provide financial assistance to a local organization that does.

And their "admin cut" as the middle-man would be ????

Church members gave $34,000 in one month of donations last December, because they love God and they love people. My point with all of this is: how can that be construed as self-serving?

Why does the "love of god" even have to enter the equation as ANY reason? So...perhaps they can get the "deeds" brownie points, perhaps? These people didn't give a tosser about others PRIOR to asking for salvation for themselves?

I wrote:

DOING for other human beings when it IS selfless has ZIP to do with the me me me, my my my... stuff. If it were purely selfless, then your belief in bible jesus would NOT come into the equation to "JUST DO".

Certainly, there ARE multiple churches "doing" things, but there are ALWAYS strings attached. Tell me Spayne, in the meal effort you state you are involved in, does the meal come without a sermon attached?

BTW, the ministry on Skid Row in LA... WHY aren't they working to help people get OFF the streets, rather than preferring to just keep them there? Is it because as long as there ARE homeless people, the ministry will have more to bleat about, as to their "aid" to the homeless in the name of "JC"??

Spayne wrote:

The homeless ministry I am involved with has been operating for six years. In that time, we have never given a sermon to the people we serve because that is not the goal of the ministry.

WIth all due respect, I find that very hard to believe. NEVER a sermon with the soup or a prayer with the pasta?

Spayne wrote:

The mission is to build friendships and relationships with people who are experiencing homelessness.

So let me understand this. The GOAL of the mission is to build relationships and friendships with the homeless? May I ask.... WHY? Are these people you "catch up" with when NOT serving out sack lunches or serving food to them from a baine marie...what once a week?

oops... need that clarified.

We serve a hot meal for an average of about 150 people.

Per day?

We also make about 100 sack lunches every week.

Per day?..sorry... every week. hmm... So these people you are allegedly building friendships with are at least guaranteed you will show up... once a week to do this?

That's CONDITIONING, Spayne.

There aren't any strings attached.

u huh.... I would like to visit the mission where you work to see for myself, Spayne.

We aren't sitting around patting ourselves on the back for our efforts.

U huh.... so, just each other for your "good service" IN CHRIST?

It's actually quite the opposite. We would all love to do more, but we are confronted with the reality of homelessness and what causes it: mental illness, drug addiction, alcoholism, chronic unemployment, broken family relationships, etc. In light of these limitations, which are often quite severe, we have done what we can to aid people in getting off the streets.

If you would truly "love" to do more, you would. The only barrier is the one YOU put up. Where there is a will, there's a way.

I realise full well the reality of homelessness and the reasons behind it. Just something I witnessed last time I was in the US, is that even EMPLOYED people, especially in CA are homeless. They are also people who do not "suffer" from the above reasons you mentioned. They in and of themselves would be an EASY client to aid. I am surprised that while making friendships and relationships with the "homeless" you have not found any that could be helped, pretty much IMMEDIATELY with the right resources in place?

There IS no limitation to the help you WOULD provide IF your focus was on the people concerned, rather than your god, with the hope to win "brownie points" with "him". If your dedication to helping others WAS the truth, then you WOULD near do anything to make it happen.

This tends to happen one person at a time.

Rubbish. I know better. A multitude of people can be helped get back on their feet if the right tools are in place for them to access. You are making excuses for your LACK of action.

And again I would ask you: what is self serving about this ministry?

One: It is a christian mission. You are out to promote your own ideals onto others. You have also stated clearly that you are doing it first and foremost out of your love of "god".

Two: It is also "lip-service" to profess you "love" someone you only help with a meal once a week...if they're lucky.

Three: You make feeble excuses about "why" you can't do more, even though you "would love to".

Four: I don't see anything even close to altruistic behaviour in giving a few bucks here and there, or spending a couple of hours at a soup kitchen.

Five: Someone who truly cares about things, actually don't even NEED to announce the "I DO THIS" stuff for people to applaud them and get recognition. You aren't even proud enough of the Mission you work with/for to mention their name. All the stuff you have mentioned has been all about the good stuff YOU allegedly do, or YOU are part of.

Need more?

I do give you credit at least for doing...something...despite it being with a god in mind MO behind it.Again though, it does not make what little you do, selfless.

I already agreed with the allegation that many Christians are self-serving. This is obvious. I would hope that you could also agree with my point that there are many Christians who are not self serving. There are many Christians out there who are loving God and loving their neighbor as themselves.

Odd, I haven't seen the "christian" love you speak of in reference to a neighbour in "christ" on here.

Unless it is a concept of supposedly "hating" yourself and your "neighbour" too... read a lot of THAT in HH alone. That reverse "love" thing would then make sense....I guess. What ever it is , "christians" tend to duke it out like kittens in a pillowcase. That's LURV???? Oh something too... I sometimes wonder what many a christian believes LOVE is. They tend to bandy it around, a lot.

And if you would concede this point,

Nope... didn't. You gave me nothing TO concede for.

then I think you must also consider my primary point as mentioned before: that God is altogether good and loving, and that in his great love for people he sent his son Jesus to be an expression of that love. This is what the Bible is about.

Nope don't concede that either. In fact if you read the entire bible it will show you that even the bible god admits he ain't all good and loving. (need a verse or two referenced here???) Nor was "the son" for that matter. He too had irrational tantrums just like "pappa".(again...need references?)

I will say though, I did used to say words akin the the above when I was preaching to people in the pews. Perhaps your "reading the entire bible" thing relates to things you have learned whilst sitting in pews or from "bible study" groups only? Hey if you DID miss it as it is not one usually mentioned in such arenas, The Book of Esther is a hoot! IF "god" allegedly inspired that one too, at least it shows he has some sense of humour. Oh also parts of Exodus. He sort of comes across as being really "camp" with his STRICT lurv of purple hues and nothing else will do in tent adornment!!!!

Catalyst.

[Flail]

The simple point you are not seeing is that anyone calling themselves a christian is so, for purely self serving reasons. Tell me Spayne, who else BUT you does the whole "asking for forgiveness/salvation" "save" when YOU ask for it?
Does YOUR asking for this salvation also mean that Joe Blogs down the road is too "saved"?

Every person is faced with the reality of having to make decisions about how they are going to live, what they believe, etc. Christianity is a unique worldview that is rooted in the Bible and the testimony of Jesus Christ. How is choosing to be a Christian anymore self serving than choosing to be an atheist or an agnostic?

Even with the financial "efforts" it was "MY" church...donating x to another MINISTRY, rather than the job lot going directly to the farmers to do with it what they will.

I'm not seeing your point here. Are you trying to suggest that the church is not genuinely serving people because they are giving to another organization? This happens with nonprofit organizations all of the time, and I have never heard of anyone being criticized because they weren't directly involved. Since the church can not physically be there to work directly with the farmers, they provide financial assistance to a local organization that does. Church members gave $34,000 in one month of donations last December, because they love God and they love people. My point with all of this is: how can that be construed as self-serving?

DOING for other human beings when it IS selfless has ZIP to do with the me me me, my my my... stuff. If it were purely selfless, then your belief in bible jesus would NOT come into the equation to "JUST DO".

Certainly, there ARE multiple churches "doing" things, but there are ALWAYS strings attached. Tell me Spayne, in the meal effort you state you are involved in, does the meal come without a sermon attached?

BTW, the ministry on Skid Row in LA... WHY aren't they working to help people get OFF the streets, rather than preferring to just keep them there? Is it because as long as there ARE homeless people, the ministry will have more to bleat about, as to their "aid" to the homeless in the name of "JC"??

The homeless ministry I am involved with has been operating for six years. In that time, we have never given a sermon to the people we serve because that is not the goal of the ministry. The mission is to build friendships and relationships with people who are experiencing homelessness. We serve a hot meal for an average of about 150 people. We also make about 100 sack lunches every week. There aren't any strings attached. We aren't sitting around patting ourselves on the back for our efforts. It's actually quite the opposite. We would all love to do more, but we are confronted with the reality of homelessness and what causes it: mental illness, drug addiction, alcoholism, chronic unemployment, broken family relationships, etc. In light of these limitations, which are often quite severe, we have done what we can to aid people in getting off the streets. This tends to happen one person at a time.

And again I would ask you: what is self serving about this ministry?

I already agreed with the allegation that many Christians are self-serving. This is obvious. I would hope that you could also agree with my point that there are many Christians who are not self serving. There are many Christians out there who are loving God and loving their neighbor as themselves. And if you would concede this point, then I think you must also consider my primary point as mentioned before: that God is altogether good and loving, and that in his great love for people he sent his son Jesus to be an expression of that love. This is what the Bible is about.

There is no argument that millions of Christians, Muslims, atheists and non-believers do wonderful and altruistic work for others; that's beside the point. My argument is that the Christian and the Muslim paradigm tend to teach 'selfishness with God' while pandering to the notion of 'helping the needy'. In my experience, Christians spend a far,far greater amount of time seeking selfishly for God's salvation and favor than do non-theists.

Often Christians seem so focused on the unflattering notion of saving themselves, they forget about the poor in the neighborhood ....or they buy into some photo-op promotion for feeding rice to the starving people in Kenya...

Sending a check to your Church to feed rice in a foreign country is too easy and often fraught with buracracy and corruption....walking around the block and down the alley to really help someone in need takes guts....and there is nothing self serving in doing so...it's all about the other guy....and it shouldn't take a 'God' to figure that out for you....

[Flail]

spayne wrote:

... Not all churches teach that you can actually hear from God and that God wants to speak to you and share his love with you, and tell you how much he loves you. This is the foundation of Christianity, and unfortunately there is a large group of Christians that don't understand how a relationship with God works. Therefore, they get disppointed and lose faith rather easily because they haven't learned how to connect with God on an intimate level. Because when you have heard God speak to you about how much he loves you, and you have gotten a glimpse of the love he has for you, you won't want to ever leave or say a bad thing about God again.

Obviously, Christianity is a trained belief system and therefore the manner in which one comes to view 'God' is totally dependent upon how one is trained. As one who wasn't trained to a 'God' belief, I read the Gospels differently. To me Jesus' message was that a relationship with 'God' comes only thru relationships with others, particularly those in need and in pain and not with worship or some supposed, self serving relationship directly with 'God'.

If we would all turn away from our trained belief systems and our particular versions God and our concocted relationships with 'Him' and turned instead toward each other we might actually find the love of which you speak.

If there is a God, common sense and the teachings of Jesus would dictate that we find such a being and such an ideal in the suffering of our neighbors regardless of who or what they are, and not in anything churchy or selfishly directed.

Although Christianity pretends to be about others, it is only engrained lip service. Christianity is all about the self...me, me, me. Love me, heal me, save me, comfort me, forgive my sins, grant me eternal life etc etc...it's quite sick actually, when you consider how much the people down the street are suffering alone. Have you ever thought how many needy people you pass in your car on your way to being churchy every Sunday, to get your dose of self serving comfort?

I'll just say a prayer for them, then I can feel like I did something without actually having to do something.

I like Jesus's teachings, they seem pretty "love your neighborish" to me.
It's when Paul gets involved that Christianity seems to turn into an organization and becomes self serving.

I'm not so sure that if Jesus were alive today, that he would be a Christian.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Praying for someone is far easier than helping someone...and if your pew mates are watching you pray you get the benefit of looking good for your neighbor.

Paul took Jesus anti-religious message and turned it into Christianity. Too bad.

[Flail]

spayne wrote:

... Not all churches teach that you can actually hear from God and that God wants to speak to you and share his love with you, and tell you how much he loves you. This is the foundation of Christianity, and unfortunately there is a large group of Christians that don't understand how a relationship with God works. Therefore, they get disppointed and lose faith rather easily because they haven't learned how to connect with God on an intimate level. Because when you have heard God speak to you about how much he loves you, and you have gotten a glimpse of the love he has for you, you won't want to ever leave or say a bad thing about God again.

Obviously, Christianity is a trained belief system and therefore the manner in which one comes to view 'God' is totally dependent upon how one is trained. As one who wasn't trained to a 'God' belief, I read the Gospels differently. To me Jesus' message was that a relationship with 'God' comes only thru relationships with others, particularly those in need and in pain and not with worship or some supposed, self serving relationship directly with 'God'.

If we would all turn away from our trained belief systems and our particular versions God and our concocted relationships with 'Him' and turned instead toward each other we might actually find the love of which you speak.

If there is a God, common sense and the teachings of Jesus would dictate that we find such a being and such an ideal in the suffering of our neighbors regardless of who or what they are, and not in anything churchy or selfishly directed.

Although Christianity pretends to be about others, it is only engrained lip service. Christianity is all about the self...me, me, me. Love me, heal me, save me, comfort me, forgive my sins, grant me eternal life etc etc...it's quite sick actually, when you consider how much the people down the street are suffering alone. Have you ever thought how many needy people you pass in your car on your way to being churchy every Sunday, to get your dose of self serving comfort?

I'll just say a prayer for them, then I can feel like I did something without actually having to do something.

I like Jesus's teachings, they seem pretty "love your neighborish" to me.
It's when Paul gets involved that Christianity seems to turn into an organization and becomes self serving.

I'm not so sure that if Jesus were alive today, that he would be a Christian.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Praying for someone is far easier than helping someone...and if your pew mates are watching you pray you get the benefit of looking good for your neighbor.

Paul took Jesus anti-religious message and turned it into Christianity. Too bad.

[spayne]

You didn't actually answer the questions I asked, but rather wrote around them. I will ask again. Who else but YOU does YOU asking for salvation/forgiveness, "save"?

Another question. If you "chose" bible jesus".. for what reason DID you "choose"?

Also, one thing, I for one did not CHOOSE to be an atheist and I can near guarantee you that if you were to ask any other atheist, on this forum (or elsewhere), they would let you know it was not a choice for them either. (I cannot speak for any agnostic...as to choice vs no choice)

It's interesting to realise that the important things in life, whether good or bad, don't come down to CHOICE. (no not a self serving viewpoint btw, just reality..one that cannot be denied...ie NO CHOICE).

So is someone pointing a gun at your head making you be an atheist? Obviously not. You have chosen to be an atheist, just as I am choosing to be a Christian. I would love to hear you explain why it somehow is not a choice to be an atheist. I would wholeheartedly disagree with you that the important things in life don't come down to choice. To state that there is no choice in life comes a from a victim mentality. Everything people do in life comes down to the choices they make, whether good or bad. And in fact, the Bible has A LOT to say about making good choices. I think perhaps that's why some people don't like to read the Bible. Because it holds us accountable for the choices we make, and states that there will always be consequences to those choices. I also might add that this is a universal concept. It's not just in the Bible.

I would agree with you about the salvation question. My initial choice to accept salvation/forgiveness of course only saves me. Everyone has to make this choice on their own. And if I only left it at that and never grew any more in my faith, then I suppose you could argue that my choice is self serving. However, true believers in Christ are always growing in love, patience, humility, kindness, self control, temperance, and forgiveness. And when those things start to occur, one's salvation definitely does have an influence on other people. For example, if you were to ask my Dad, my sister, my coworkers, and friends who knew me before I converted from Christianity to atheism, they would bear witness to the change that salvation has brought to my life.

Another example might be this conversation we are having. You have said some incredibly rude and presumptuous things to me. I don't feel that I have responded to you in the same way; therefore, my responses are coming from a belief of treating others in the same way that I would like to be treated: with dignity and respect. I attribute my commitment to this as a product of my relationship with Christ.

With regard to your many comments about the homeless ministry, the nature of nonprofits and the gifts to the farmers in Africa: I would like to point out that you are making a lot of incorrect assumptions about these activities. The fact of the matter is that you don't know what we do, and you don't even seem inclined to believe what I have already told you. As an example, when I said that we don't give sermons, I meant that we don't, in fact, give sermons. And with regard to your comment that we are somehow not doing enough because we don't care enough: again, an assumption on your part. The real story is that we have helped many people in countless ways, but we are also limited by how much help people want. For example, we have helped several people get into drug rehab programs; however, we can't make them stay in those programs if they don't want to. And that has, in fact, been the case with a number of people. Sometimes the help we offer them is rejected. Until you are down on the streets, and you actually see this and witness it, with respect, you are making at best a cursory evaluation of what is going on and how effective we are.

And finally, to your comments about the Bible. I have read the entire Bible and I have been a commited Christian for many years. One of the foundations of the Bible is the revelation of who God is, and he makes his character quite evident in many different passages. These passages state over and over that he is a God who is abounding in love, mercy and kindness. Where I think people go wrong is that they don't seem to understand or acknowledge that God allows there to be consequences for the evil/immoral/irreverant behavior of people. Hence, he is criticized for the manner in which he responds not to his evil deeds, but the evil deeds of humanity. This is one of the important themes of the Bible.

So I would say to you again: the message of the Bible is that God has this amazing love for people...including you catalyst. The entire Bible is a love story written by the God who is hopelessly in love with his creation, and wants them to love him in return. Once you encounter this love in a real way, your life is never the same again. You can criticize or reject that for yourself if you would like. But to say that all Christians who have found this kind of love are self-serving is just an incorrect assumption on your part.