spayne wrote:catalyst wrote:The simple point you are not seeing is that anyone calling themselves a christian is so, for purely self serving reasons. Tell me Spayne, who else BUT you does the whole "asking for forgiveness/salvation" "save" when YOU ask for it?
Does YOUR asking for this salvation also mean that Joe Blogs down the road is too "saved"?
Every person is faced with the reality of having to make decisions about how they are going to live, what they believe, etc. Christianity is a unique worldview that is rooted in the Bible and the testimony of Jesus Christ. How is choosing to be a Christian anymore self serving than choosing to be an atheist or an agnostic?
You didn't actually answer the questions I asked, but rather wrote around them. I will ask again. Who else but YOU does YOU asking for salvation/forgiveness, "save"?
Another question. If you "chose" bible jesus".. for what reason DID you "choose"?
Also, one thing, I for one did not CHOOSE to be an atheist and I can near guarantee you that if you were to ask any other atheist, on this forum (or elsewhere), they would let you know it was not a choice for them either. (I cannot speak for any agnostic...as to choice vs no choice)
It's interesting to realise that the important things in life, whether good or bad, don't come down to CHOICE. (no not a self serving viewpoint btw, just reality..one that cannot be denied...ie NO CHOICE).
I wrote:
Even with the financial "efforts" it was "MY" church...donating x to another MINISTRY, rather than the job lot going directly to the farmers to do with it what they will.
Spayne replied:
I'm not seeing your point here. Are you trying to suggest that the church is not genuinely serving people because they are giving to another organization?
You are the one stating that the $34000 went to a Ministry in Africa to "help" farmers there. Help in what way may I ask? Do you even know?
Spayne wrote:
This happens with nonprofit organizations all of the time, and I have never heard of anyone being criticized because they weren't directly involved.
I know how NFP's work. I run one. The idea IS to be DIRECTLY INVOLVED. ALL the income, assets and surplus funds of the organisation must be used to achieve its objectives relating purely to the PURPOSE. Perhaps you are confusing the whole NFP with the concept of "charity" only.
Since the church can not physically be there to work directly with the farmers, they provide financial assistance to a local organization that does.
And their "admin cut" as the middle-man would be ????
Church members gave $34,000 in one month of donations last December, because they love God and they love people. My point with all of this is: how can that be construed as self-serving?
Why does the "love of god" even have to enter the equation as ANY reason? So...perhaps they can get the "deeds" brownie points, perhaps? These people didn't give a tosser about others PRIOR to asking for salvation for themselves?
I wrote:
DOING for other human beings when it IS selfless has ZIP to do with the me me me, my my my... stuff. If it were purely selfless, then your belief in bible jesus would NOT come into the equation to "JUST DO".
Certainly, there ARE multiple churches "doing" things, but there are ALWAYS strings attached. Tell me Spayne, in the meal effort you state you are involved in, does the meal come without a sermon attached?
BTW, the ministry on Skid Row in LA... WHY aren't they working to help people get OFF the streets, rather than preferring to just keep them there? Is it because as long as there ARE homeless people, the ministry will have more to bleat about, as to their "aid" to the homeless in the name of "JC"??
Spayne wrote:
The homeless ministry I am involved with has been operating for six years. In that time, we have never given a sermon to the people we serve because that is not the goal of the ministry.
WIth all due respect, I find that very hard to believe. NEVER a sermon with the soup or a prayer with the pasta?
Spayne wrote:
The mission is to build friendships and relationships with people who are experiencing homelessness.
So let me understand this. The GOAL of the mission is to build relationships and friendships with the homeless? May I ask.... WHY? Are these people you "catch up" with when NOT serving out sack lunches or serving food to them from a baine marie...what once a week?
oops... need that clarified.
We serve a hot meal for an average of about 150 people.
Per day?
We also make about 100 sack lunches every week.
Per day?..sorry... every week. hmm... So these people you are allegedly building friendships with are at least guaranteed you will show up... once a week to do this?
That's CONDITIONING, Spayne.
There aren't any strings attached.
u huh.... I would like to visit the mission where you work to see for myself, Spayne.
We aren't sitting around patting ourselves on the back for our efforts.
U huh.... so, just each other for your "good service" IN CHRIST?
It's actually quite the opposite. We would all love to do more, but we are confronted with the reality of homelessness and what causes it: mental illness, drug addiction, alcoholism, chronic unemployment, broken family relationships, etc. In light of these limitations, which are often quite severe, we have done what we can to aid people in getting off the streets.
If you would truly "love" to do more, you would. The only barrier is the one YOU put up. Where there is a will, there's a way.
I realise full well the reality of homelessness and the reasons behind it. Just something I witnessed last time I was in the US, is that even EMPLOYED people, especially in CA are homeless. They are also people who do not "suffer" from the above reasons you mentioned. They in and of themselves would be an EASY client to aid. I am surprised that while making friendships and relationships with the "homeless" you have not found any that could be helped, pretty much IMMEDIATELY with the right resources in place?
There IS no limitation to the help you WOULD provide IF your focus was on the people concerned, rather than your god, with the hope to win "brownie points" with "him". If your dedication to helping others WAS the truth, then you WOULD near do anything to make it happen.
This tends to happen one person at a time.
Rubbish. I know better. A multitude of people can be helped get back on their feet if the right tools are in place for them to access. You are making excuses for your LACK of action.
And again I would ask you: what is self serving about this ministry?
One: It is a christian mission. You are out to promote your own ideals onto others. You have also stated clearly that you are doing it first and foremost out of your love of "god".
Two: It is also "lip-service" to profess you "love" someone you only help with a meal once a week...if they're lucky.
Three: You make feeble excuses about "why" you can't do more, even though you "would love to".
Four: I don't see anything even close to altruistic behaviour in giving a few bucks here and there, or spending a couple of hours at a soup kitchen.
Five: Someone who truly cares about things, actually don't even NEED to announce the "I DO THIS" stuff for people to applaud them and get recognition. You aren't even proud enough of the Mission you work with/for to mention their name. All the stuff you have mentioned has been all about the good stuff YOU allegedly do, or YOU are part of.
Need more?
I do give you credit at least for doing...something...despite it being with a god in mind MO behind it.Again though, it does not make what little you do, selfless.
I already agreed with the allegation that many Christians are self-serving. This is obvious. I would hope that you could also agree with my point that there are many Christians who are not self serving. There are many Christians out there who are loving God and loving their neighbor as themselves.
Odd, I haven't seen the "christian" love you speak of in reference to a neighbour in "christ" on here.
Unless it is a concept of supposedly "hating" yourself and your "neighbour" too... read a lot of THAT in HH alone. That reverse "love" thing would then make sense....I guess. What ever it is , "christians" tend to duke it out like kittens in a pillowcase. That's LURV???? Oh something too... I sometimes wonder what many a christian believes LOVE is. They tend to bandy it around, a lot.
And if you would concede this point,
Nope... didn't. You gave me nothing TO concede for.
then I think you must also consider my primary point as mentioned before: that God is altogether good and loving, and that in his great love for people he sent his son Jesus to be an expression of that love. This is what the Bible is about.
Nope don't concede that either. In fact if you read the entire bible it will show you that even the bible god admits he ain't all good and loving. (need a verse or two referenced here???) Nor was "the son" for that matter. He too had irrational tantrums just like "pappa".(again...need references?)
I will say though, I did used to say words akin the the above when I was preaching to people in the pews. Perhaps your "reading the entire bible" thing relates to things you have learned whilst sitting in pews or from "bible study" groups only? Hey if you DID miss it as it is not one usually mentioned in such arenas, The Book of Esther is a hoot! IF "god" allegedly inspired that one too, at least it shows he has some sense of humour. Oh also parts of Exodus. He sort of comes across as being really "camp" with his STRICT lurv of purple hues and nothing else will do in tent adornment!!!!
Catalyst.