I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

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Post #291

Post by bernee51 »

spayne wrote:
Well, I suppose one of the many things that stumps me about this one is how atheists claim that a being they actually don't believe exists is evil.  It's illogical.  If you don't believe in the God who is the subject of this debate thread
A very good and oft asked question. When I talk of god I speak of the concept, not the extant reality. That is the major difference re. God belief between us...I hold that god(s) are nothing more than a concept, you I suspect hold that you god is both a concept and an extant reality. What view do you hold of other religions extant reality/concept?
spayne wrote:
...then by default you don't  believe the Bible.  And if you don't believe the Bible, why do you care what it says?
It is not that I don't believe the bible, it is a remarkable pice of literature that is a mixture of myth, metaphor, history, narrative etc (I defer to cNorman's description). But so is the Bhagavad Gita for instance. In fact I find more of worth in the Gita on how to assess and apprehend the nature if existence than the bible will ever be.

May your god bless you....
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Post #292

Post by arian »

bernee51 wrote:
arian wrote:
Then tell him that that clock is a result of evolution. Sundials -> Water Clocks -> Candle Clocks -> Sandglass -> Weightdriven -> Springdriven -> Pendulumdriven.
Are you now saying that even 'Sundials' evolved to 'Grandfather clocks'?
In a way, yes.
In a way, yes, I also agree, just like the universe, by conscious will of its Creator. God created first the heaven (where He later put the earth and the stars), then the earth next, and continued working, planning, building till He was finished. Gods work evolved as He went on till it was all done, just like a clockmaker makes a clock. I agree to 'conscious evolution' by plan and hard work.
Do you recall the words of Julian Huxley..."we, homo sapiens, are evolution become aware of itself". Not only can we consciously contribute to our own evolution, but we can and do engage in the evolution of other organisms and systems.
"we, homo sapiens, are evolution become aware of itself" and then we go and screw it all up. Now why would 13.75 billion years of perfect evolution screw itself up by becoming conscious of itself?
bernee51 wrote:We are at the emergent edge of 16 billion years of evolution.

Evolution is a process of inclusion and transcendence
Yes we are created from, by and 'included' IN God, and our spirit/soul is transcendent. We can engage in the evolution of other organisms and systems like we can take a rock and derive copper and iron ore from it, we can alter genes of existing plants, take the female sheeps DNA that was already created by God and put it in its own egg and wait till it gives birth to a baby that looks just like the mother. So what?

Everything we needed was already there, created by God.

Good to hear from you bernee51!

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Post #293

Post by Mithrae »

Haven wrote:
spayne wrote: Who is bringing up the justice of God in relation to those who suffer? I find it's usually the other way around. I keep trying to express how loving God is, and over and over again the atheists seem intent to talk about God as an evil entity.
The reason some atheists talk about God as an evil entity is that only an evil entity could sit idly by and ignore the prayers of starving children for relief, knowing that he has the power to stop their suffering. That is what, in my opinion, seems evil about God.
Makes you think how evil we are, also. There's absolutely no reason for any child on earth to starve. We can't claim ignorance, we can't claim that we can't change the world. Simple fact is that we hardly care about these poor little starving children. My luxuries to 'charity' ratio is in the order of 10:1 last I checked, and if I won the lottery I'd spend at least half of it on myself and others close to me who likewise have no need for it. The dark side of empathy as a basis for morality :lol:

I reckon a person would want to devote at least as much time and money towards fixing the world as to their luxury and relaxation before calling a deity 'evil' for not providing a magical fix for human greed and evil. But maybe that's just me.

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Post #294

Post by bernee51 »

Arian wrote: In a way, yes, I also agree, just like the universe, ...
The universe does not have conscious will. And your I AM is a concept...but more of that later.

And the work is not complete and will not be...ever.
Arian wrote:
I agree to 'conscious evolution' by plan and hard work.
Your god found it hard work?
Arian wrote:
"we, homo sapiens, are evolution become aware of itself" and then we go and screw it all up.
What is screwed up? In an emergent universe, which it is, it is only as it can be. 
Arian wrote: Now why would 13.75 billion years of perfect evolution screw itself up by becoming conscious of itself?
You are nothing if not consistent. You are still creating straw men to shoot down, or set fire to.

I never claimed, and never would claim, perfection for evolution. They are you words, not mine.
Arian wrote: Yes we are created from, by and 'included' IN God, and our spirit/soul is transcendent.
In a way. We are made of stardust. And the 'dust' that makes up your left arm most probably came from a different star. We include and transcend the stars.
Arian wrote: We can engage in the evolution of other organisms and systems like we can take a rock and derive copper and iron ore from it, we can alter genes of existing plants, take the female sheeps DNA that was already created by God and put it in its own egg and wait till it gives birth to ....So what?
So what? I find it remarkable! We are lucky to exist!
Arian wrote: Everything we needed was already there, created by God.
 

So you keep saying.

And you bible god - the great I AM was preceded by tat team asi, as I have mentioned previously. The IAM is Awareness itself. And the only creatures as far as I know it, who can have knowledge of, and access to, are we homo sapiens. Perhaps other animals have glimpses of it.

That Awareness is like the screen on which the movie of our mind is projected. The movies are different but the screen is the same.
Arian wrote:
Good to hear from you bernee51!
And you Odon.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Post #295

Post by sickles »

bernee51 wrote: The universe does not have conscious will.
lol. so certain. is this falsifiable , or should i just take your word on it?
"Behold! A Man!" ~ Diogenes, my Hero.

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Post #296

Post by Goat »

sickles wrote:
bernee51 wrote: The universe does not have conscious will.
lol. so certain. is this falsifiable , or should i just take your word on it?
Can you show the mechanism by which consciousness can occur on intergalactic scales?

If not , then the statement 'The universe does not have conscious will' is a perfectly reasonable conclusion
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #297

Post by Bust Nak »

Mithrae wrote:I reckon a person would want to devote at least as much time and money towards fixing the world as to their luxury and relaxation before calling a deity 'evil' for not providing a magical fix for human greed and evil. But maybe that's just me.
I don't think the idea that the deity they worship has morality on par with a motal, whose charity ratio is 10:1, will go down well with Christians.

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Post #298

Post by Mithrae »

Goat wrote:
sickles wrote:
bernee51 wrote: The universe does not have conscious will.
lol. so certain. is this falsifiable , or should i just take your word on it?
Can you show the mechanism by which consciousness can occur on intergalactic scales?

If not , then the statement 'The universe does not have conscious will' is a perfectly reasonable conclusion
In other words, in a debate forum "a perfectly reasonable conclusion" is one which is non-falsifiable?

I rather suspect that human experience aside, it would be impossible to show the mechanism by which consciousness can occur on the neurological level.


Edit:
Bust Nak wrote:
Mithrae wrote:I reckon a person would want to devote at least as much time and money towards fixing the world as to their luxury and relaxation before calling a deity 'evil' for not providing a magical fix for human greed and evil. But maybe that's just me.
I don't think the idea that the deity they worship has morality on par with a motal, whose charity ratio is 10:1, will go down well with Christians.
You care what Christians think? How nice of you :)

I'm more concerned about my own 'evil,' as Haven describes it, and that of my fellow humans, but to cover all bases I guess I could probably spare some time to questioning Santa's trespassing. Let's get Goat on the Tooth Fairy's theft and DNA property rights.

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Post #299

Post by Autodidact »

spayne wrote:
Autodidact wrote:
spayne wrote:
Autodidact wrote:
If your mind is that made up, why do you even want to have such a conversation with me or any other Christian regarding the existence of God? Isn't it just a waste of time? What type of evidence would convince you that hasn't already been presented somewhere in this board?
Well, it's always possible that you may yet see reason, so it's not a waste of my time.

I'll decide how to spend my time, thank you. Since your mind is made up, I assume, and you believe that debate when your mind is made up is a waste of time, why are you wasting your time?

The type of evidence that would convince me is the same type of evidence that I--and you--use in every other area of our lives. Do you have any?
I do see reason.
Can you perhaps share it with us?
I choose not to go into a great level of detail in my conversations with you because of your interactions with me in the past. This might come as a surprise to you, but I really don't enjoy being called a "bigot" or "ignorant," which are two of several names you have thrown my way in former debates. I'm sure you see my point.
It is entirely your option whether to talk with me or not.

My advice, if you don't want to be called a bigot, is not to express bigotry.

As for ignorance, it's nothing to be ashamed of. I'm ignorant of many more things than I am knowledgeable. I just take care not to claim knowledge where I lack it.

Now, did you want to discuss the thread topic, or me?
You are an interesting person to me Autodidact. I am sure that behind all of your offensive language, which you seem to be totally unapologetic in stating, you are a beautiful person with a wonderful heart. No, I don't have any interesting in continuing this conversation with you. But I will state that, if by some unusual circumstance, we had an opportunity to actually sit down for tea or coffee and talk in person, it might be an illuminating conversation. I assure you I am not the person you seem to have painted me to be. Cheers.
Apparently you're more interested in discussing me than the thread topic. I think that would not be considerate of the forum or participants, so I respectively decline. If you ever are interested in doing what we're here for, debating, just let me know. And if you think I violate forum rules, I encourage you to report me to the mods, whose job it is to keep our discourse polite.

I don't know anything about you except what you post here, where you paint yourself with your responses.

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Post #300

Post by bernee51 »

sickles wrote:
bernee51 wrote: The universe does not have conscious will.
lol. so certain. is this falsifiable , or should i just take your word on it?
No it is not substantially falsifiable, it is my current conclusions based on my personal experience gained through years of study, meditation and self enquiry. Your conclusions based on my word or not are just that, your conclusions. There is only Awareness...all knowledge is, and can only be, grounded in that. And in that sense ii may or may not be false.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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