Question about Jews

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Holyspirit213
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Question about Jews

Post #1

Post by Holyspirit213 »

Who is the messiah? Isn't it true that Jesus Christ claimed to be a messiah?

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Re: Question about Jews

Post #2

Post by Autodidact »

Isn't it true that Jesus Christ claimed to be a messiah?
Who knows? We don't even know if there ever was such a person. This is not a question about Jews, it's a question about a Jew, Yeshua.

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Post by Holyspirit213 »

I mean the Jew was a Judaism master but what about his followers, why didn't they get along if they were both descendants of Abraham?

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Re: Prodigy

Post #4

Post by Suluby »

Holyspirit213 wrote: I mean the Jew was a Judaism master but what about his followers, why didn't they get along if they were both descendants of Abraham?

By "the Jew" I presume you are referring to Jesus. You call him a "Judaism master" ..... do you mean a wise man, a sage, a man very well educated in Jewish theology and law and looked upon by the Jewish community as a source of wisdom and guidance on how to best obey the law?

It does seem that Jesus was not such a man, as the preaching that is attributed to him is that living the Law - the Torah - and actually following the instructions given by G-d, should be abandoned. He actually preached against the Torah and observance of Torah law.

I'm not quite sure just who you are talking about when you say "his followers" and am not at all clear who it is that you say didn't get along, even though they are both descendants of Abraham. Maybe if you clarify, I can give you a better answer.


As far as Jesus being the messiah foretold in the Jewish scripture, the Tanakh ..... we can only assess what actually happened. The Jewish prophesies about the Jewish messiah are very specific about what will happen. And when those things happen, the person who brought them about will be proclaimed by Jews - unanimously - the messiah. In Judaism, the messiah is not G-d or divine in any way. He will be a human being, not G-d or a part of G-d and will not be worshiped as G-d. He will be tasked by G-d with accomplishing certain things during his lifetime. And when those things happen, we will know that the messiah has arrived.

Those things have never happened yet.

That's how Jews know that the messiah has not yet come.

.

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Re: Prodigy

Post #5

Post by Goat »

Suluby wrote:
Holyspirit213 wrote: I mean the Jew was a Judaism master but what about his followers, why didn't they get along if they were both descendants of Abraham?

By "the Jew" I presume you are referring to Jesus. You call him a "Judaism master" ..... do you mean a wise man, a sage, a man very well educated in Jewish theology and law and looked upon by the Jewish community as a source of wisdom and guidance on how to best obey the law?

It does seem that Jesus was not such a man, as the preaching that is attributed to him is that living the Law - the Torah - and actually following the instructions given by G-d, should be abandoned. He actually preached against the Torah and observance of Torah law.
I am not so sure about that. I would say that Paul, preaching in Jesus' name decades later, did that.. but what Jesus might or might not have taught, who knows? Words attributed to Jesus said 'Not one word of the law shall be changed until all is complete'. It is Paul that talked against the Torah and the observance of the Torah law.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: Prodigy

Post #6

Post by Suluby »

Goat wrote:
Suluby wrote:
Holyspirit213 wrote: I mean the Jew was a Judaism master but what about his followers, why didn't they get along if they were both descendants of Abraham?
By "the Jew" I presume you are referring to Jesus. You call him a "Judaism master" ..... do you mean a wise man, a sage, a man very well educated in Jewish theology and law and looked upon by the Jewish community as a source of wisdom and guidance on how to best obey the law?

It does seem that Jesus was not such a man, as the preaching that is attributed to him is that living the Law - the Torah - and actually following the instructions given by G-d, should be abandoned. He actually preached against the Torah and observance of Torah law.
I am not so sure about that. I would say that Paul, preaching in Jesus' name decades later, did that.. but what Jesus might or might not have taught, who knows? Words attributed to Jesus said 'Not one word of the law shall be changed until all is complete'. It is Paul that talked against the Torah and the observance of the Torah law.
That's very true.

But it was Jesus, in Matthew 12, who defended the disciples who harvested grains on Shabbat.


.

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Re: Prodigy

Post #7

Post by Goat »

Suluby wrote:
Goat wrote:
Suluby wrote:
Holyspirit213 wrote: I mean the Jew was a Judaism master but what about his followers, why didn't they get along if they were both descendants of Abraham?
By "the Jew" I presume you are referring to Jesus. You call him a "Judaism master" ..... do you mean a wise man, a sage, a man very well educated in Jewish theology and law and looked upon by the Jewish community as a source of wisdom and guidance on how to best obey the law?

It does seem that Jesus was not such a man, as the preaching that is attributed to him is that living the Law - the Torah - and actually following the instructions given by G-d, should be abandoned. He actually preached against the Torah and observance of Torah law.
I am not so sure about that. I would say that Paul, preaching in Jesus' name decades later, did that.. but what Jesus might or might not have taught, who knows? Words attributed to Jesus said 'Not one word of the law shall be changed until all is complete'. It is Paul that talked against the Torah and the observance of the Torah law.
That's very true.

But it was Jesus, in Matthew 12, who defended the disciples who harvested grains on Shabbat.


.
Yet.. he was actually chidding the Pharisees for not following some of the principles that are set off in genesis. One passage has to do with making sure that not all the grain is harvested so that the poor may be able to come , gather it and eat. The principle of kindness and charity is more important.

Not that I think that this specific incident happened.. Matthew had a lot of very odd stories. However, the principle , and how charity and concern over well being overrides other restriction. Although the writer of Matthew does have Jesus challenging the status quo, he does have Jesus defending his actions via the use of things in the torah (Relating his actions to the actions of David entering the temple to eat )..

Oddly enough, Matthew does not mention the Sadducee .. To me, this indicates that by the time Matthew was written, the temple was destroyed, and the Sadducee faction no longer existed
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: Prodigy

Post #8

Post by ThatGirlAgain »

Goat wrote:
Suluby wrote:
Goat wrote:
Suluby wrote:
Holyspirit213 wrote: I mean the Jew was a Judaism master but what about his followers, why didn't they get along if they were both descendants of Abraham?
By "the Jew" I presume you are referring to Jesus. You call him a "Judaism master" ..... do you mean a wise man, a sage, a man very well educated in Jewish theology and law and looked upon by the Jewish community as a source of wisdom and guidance on how to best obey the law?

It does seem that Jesus was not such a man, as the preaching that is attributed to him is that living the Law - the Torah - and actually following the instructions given by G-d, should be abandoned. He actually preached against the Torah and observance of Torah law.
I am not so sure about that. I would say that Paul, preaching in Jesus' name decades later, did that.. but what Jesus might or might not have taught, who knows? Words attributed to Jesus said 'Not one word of the law shall be changed until all is complete'. It is Paul that talked against the Torah and the observance of the Torah law.
That's very true.

But it was Jesus, in Matthew 12, who defended the disciples who harvested grains on Shabbat.


.
Yet.. he was actually chidding the Pharisees for not following some of the principles that are set off in genesis. One passage has to do with making sure that not all the grain is harvested so that the poor may be able to come , gather it and eat. The principle of kindness and charity is more important.

Not that I think that this specific incident happened.. Matthew had a lot of very odd stories. However, the principle , and how charity and concern over well being overrides other restriction. Although the writer of Matthew does have Jesus challenging the status quo, he does have Jesus defending his actions via the use of things in the torah (Relating his actions to the actions of David entering the temple to eat )..

Oddly enough, Matthew does not mention the Sadducee .. To me, this indicates that by the time Matthew was written, the temple was destroyed, and the Sadducee faction no longer existed
I agree with the idea that Matthew (and all the Gospels) were written after the destruction of the Temple although for other reasons. However I see in Mark (and therefore in Matthew and Luke who took a lot of his material) a picture of a preacher who grew up in the era of Hillel (before 20 CE) and is doing his preaching in the era of Shammai (20-30 CE). Hillel was more interested in the spirit of the law while Shammai was a stickler for the letter of the law. The inference from that seems to be that Mark et al. were drawing on a body of tradition over 40 years old when they wrote.

BTW Matthew definitely does mention the Sadducees.
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?se ... ultspp=500
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Post #9

Post by cnorman18 »

Why are we discussing issues having to do with Jesus being the Messiah in the Judaism forum?

The stated purpose of this forum is "to discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to." And that would include the subject of whether Jesus was the Messiah. According to the teachings of every branch of the Jewish religion, he was not.

This thread should be moved to Christianity and Apologetics.

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