Perception of Reality or Reality of Perception

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A Troubled Man
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Perception of Reality or Reality of Perception

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Post by A Troubled Man »

We are constantly bombarded with believers telling us their versions of reality in which gods, demons, angels, etc. are constantly swirling around our heads in endless battles of good vs. evil, of invisible gods who intervene in our affairs and all other types of supernatural events taking place right under our noses.

Since there is only one reality and no one has ever shown it to be anything other than what we all experience it to be every day, which never shows those gods, angels or other supernatural events existing and occurring, are believers perceiving that as reality, are they just misunderstanding the terms reality and perception or are they merely wishing reality was the way they want it to be?


Reality - That which exists objectively and in fact.

Perception - to become aware of (something) through the senses, to recognize or observe.

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Re: Perception of Reality or Reality of Perception

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Post by JP Cusick »

A Troubled Man wrote: We are constantly bombarded with believers telling us their versions of reality in which gods, demons, angels, etc. are constantly swirling around our heads in endless battles of good vs. evil, of invisible gods who intervene in our affairs and all other types of supernatural events taking place right under our noses.

Since there is only one reality and no one has ever shown it to be anything other than what we all experience it to be every day, which never shows those gods, angels or other supernatural events existing and occurring, are believers perceiving that as reality, are they just misunderstanding the terms reality and perception or are they merely wishing reality was the way they want it to be?

Reality - That which exists objectively and in fact.

Perception - to become aware of (something) through the senses, to recognize or observe.
I am resurrecting this thread from long ago.

I can not quite distinguish if the OP is confused about perception being reality or not.

My finding is that people who refuse to believe in spirits and ghost and God are the people who reject their own perception, and then they start defining reality as different from their seeing of the ghost or of interacting with God.

We do know that God and ghost and spirits can be perceived, and then people will deny their own perception.

I have even been with people when we experienced the spirit world and the next day those same people would start their denials, as like it did not happen.

Claiming that there is only one reality - is just one of the defensive chants for those in denial.
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Re: Perception of Reality or Reality of Perception

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Post by Neatras »

JP Cusick wrote:
We do know that God and ghost and spirits can be perceived, and then people will deny their own perception.
I will dismiss this as a lofty claim unless you can substantiate it with evidence. Just declaring it to be so doesn't really have any weight behind it.

Where is the evidence that ghosts/spirits exist, much less be perceived?

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Re: Perception of Reality or Reality of Perception

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Post by JP Cusick »

Neatras wrote:
JP Cusick wrote: We do know that God and ghost and spirits can be perceived, and then people will deny their own perception.
I will dismiss this as a lofty claim unless you can substantiate it with evidence. Just declaring it to be so doesn't really have any weight behind it.

Where is the evidence that ghosts/spirits exist, much less be perceived?
I appreciate your comment even though it is hostile, because that is the reason that I resurrected the old topic as I see it to be so arrogant and so dishonest.

There are records of people perceiving ghost and spirits and God in every part of humanity throughout history.

Claiming that they are not perceived is the ultimate form of dishonesty by denial.

There are reports of ghost and of God in your own hometown and in your own family, because it is reported in every house and in every area of the planet earth and beyond because ghost have been reported even in outer space, LINK.

It is one thing to rationalize or make excuses for every report of God or of ghosts, but to claim that they are not perceived is dishonest.

The fact remains that there are lots of real places on earth and here in the USA too where people can experience ghost or spirits and I say that can be done anywhere at any time but I would not recommend doing that to those who have to deny the reality because they can not handle the truth.
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Re: Perception of Reality or Reality of Perception

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Post by Divine Insight »

JP Cusick wrote: It is one thing to rationalize or make excuses for every report of God or of ghosts, but to claim that they are not perceived is dishonest.

The fact remains that there are lots of real places on earth and here in the USA too where people can experience ghost or spirits and I say that can be done anywhere at any time but I would not recommend doing that to those who have to deny the reality because they can not handle the truth.
There are major problems with your thesis here. Surely you'll agree once I point them out.

To begin with, if you claim that everyone who believes they have perceived a "God" or a "Ghost", etc, has truly done so, then you hypothesis requires that every single religion throughout all of history must then necessarily be confirmed via perception, because people from every religion have claimed to have seen THEIR GOD, etc.

Don't forget also that in Europe "Fairy Sightings" are commonly reported as well, so then according to your measure of "Reality" fairies, leprechauns, and all manner of spiritual and mythological characters must then necessarily exist because people are perceiving them to exist.

I think it is far more rational to recognize and acknowledge that what many people claim to have "perceived" is far more likely to be nothing more than a figment of their own imagination. They may have very well "seen" something, but it most likely wasn't what they thought it was. Or they were indeed hallucinating or imagining to see things.

I have practiced many different techniques used for things like "Shamanic Journeying" and "Lucid Meditations and Dreaming, and during those exercises I have imagined "seeing" many entities all of which were created within my own mind.

So obviously those entities are as "real" as my imagination, but that's about all that can be said. :D

For you to claim that Gods, Ghosts, or Fairies, etc, must exist just because people claim to have seen them doesn't sound to me like a rational argument. You seem to be forgetting that the easiest person for us to fool is ourselves. And the masses tend to do this quite often.

Don't forget also that many people claimed to have seen Elvis after he died too. Do you hold then that it's rational to conclude that Elvis must still be alive? :-k

I can't see where you have given any serious thought to your position here. There are obviously many flaws in what you are proposing.
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Re: Perception of Reality or Reality of Perception

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Post by JP Cusick »

Divine Insight wrote: To begin with, if you claim that everyone who believes they have perceived a "God" or a "Ghost", etc, has truly done so, then you hypothesis requires that every single religion throughout all of history must then necessarily be confirmed via perception, because people from every religion have claimed to have seen THEIR GOD, etc.

Don't forget also that in Europe "Fairy Sightings" are commonly reported as well, so then according to your measure of "Reality" fairies, leprechauns, and all manner of spiritual and mythological characters must then necessarily exist because people are perceiving them to exist.

I think it is far more rational to recognize and acknowledge that what many people claim to have "perceived" is far more likely to be nothing more than a figment of their own imagination. They may have very well "seen" something, but it most likely wasn't what they thought it was. Or they were indeed hallucinating or imagining to see things.
I investigate my own sightings and experiences of God and of spirits and ghosts and I report my own to be true and accurate after a lot of study and research of my own.

I can also report as accurate and verified that of some other people too when I was present at the time and so I confirmed such with some other people.

The fact that some other people will claim to see fairies or see UFOs or see a ghost or hear from God then yes any of them might be wrong or inaccurate or delusional or mentally ill, and so their own interpretation of whatever they see or experience needs to be evaluated.

I do not accept every claim to be true, but I do not reject every claim either.

I do view every religion to be based on the truth (the existence of God), even though the people turn their religions into nonsense.

One big problem is that humans start distorting the imagination in childhood by brainwashing children with imaginary garbage, and then most continue distorting their imagination as adults by reading fiction and by trashy movies and video games so that their imaginations are so distorted as to be nearly useless.

The human imagination is a powerful tool, but most people turn it into a stupid game for fun and amusement.
Divine Insight wrote: I have practiced many different techniques used for things like "Shamanic Journeying" and "Lucid Meditations and Dreaming, and during those exercises I have imagined "seeing" many entities all of which were created within my own mind.

So obviously those entities are as "real" as my imagination, but that's about all that can be said. :D
What that means is that you do not trust your own senses.

Your eyes see things and you do not believe your own eyes.
You feel the stuff and you do not believe your own feelings.
You imagine stuff and fail to believe your own imagination.

If done correctly then it is dangerous to do a seance or conjuring unless we are really ready to deal with the spirit world - and most people are not ready.
Divine Insight wrote: For you to claim that Gods, Ghosts, or Fairies, etc, must exist just because people claim to have seen them doesn't sound to me like a rational argument. You seem to be forgetting that the easiest person for us to fool is ourselves. And the masses tend to do this quite often.

Don't forget also that many people claimed to have seen Elvis after he died too. Do you hold then that it's rational to conclude that Elvis must still be alive? :-k

I can't see where you have given any serious thought to your position here. There are obviously many flaws in what you are proposing.
I do not accept all the claims of other people, and I agree that most people can not accurately name what they claim to experience, but I do not reject every person or every claim, and many people really do know about the ghost that they experience, and I have to question my own experiences but I keep getting better and better at it over the years.

I believe that Elvis is dead, and if Elvis turned up alive then I would see him as a fool, and I have known people who say that Elvis faked his death - and I say why would I care anything about that man? which I do not care anything about Elvis.

The ghost are interesting and I find that there is a big difference in the spirit world, as ghost are few but Demons are a plenty and there are friendly spirits and there is one very powerful entity which is inaccurately called God.

The spirits are like people in that every one has a different and unique personality.
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Re: Perception of Reality or Reality of Perception

Post #8

Post by Neatras »

JP Cusick wrote:
I appreciate your comment even though it is hostile, because that is the reason that I resurrected the old topic as I see it to be so arrogant and so dishonest.
Dismissing a claim is not an act of hostility. Requesting evidence is not hostility. You have imposed a tone on my post that does not exist, and in doing so have attempted to paint me out to be an antagonist. Do not do this.
JP Cusick wrote: There are records of people perceiving ghost and spirits and God in every part of humanity throughout history.
There are records of people claiming to have perceived ghosts and spirits. Assuming the truth of unverified claims is exactly what I'm not doing by challenging your assertions.
JP Cusick wrote: Claiming that they are not perceived is the ultimate form of dishonesty by denial.
I can claim that people have had hallucinations. Hallucinations are a well-documented form of mental deficiency and incorrect evaluations of sensory input. To claim that they are all real would be the height of arrogance. Fortunately, you aren't claiming they all are. That would be me putting words in your mouth. But at the same time, you have put words in my mouth. You have claimed I am being dishonest, using a form of dishonesty "by denial," which sounds more like you are just picking any fallacy that sounds good enough to label my argument and dismiss it. Thankfully, I can expound on where you're wrong.

First off, I'm going to dispel the nonsense that you'll next employ. Your next tactic will be to say, "I'm not calling you dishonest, Neatras. I'm merely saying that dismissing their claims is a form of dishonesty by denial[/b]." This can be ignored due to the way your post directly addresses me, and the type of argument you perceive me to be employing. But perception can still be wrong, Cusick.

Secondly, dismissing witness testimony that is not properly verified using literally any standard of evidence is not only intellectually honest, but epistemologically rational to do. The alternative is to take all stated claims from all humans and treat them as being honest, at face value. This would cause me to disconnect from reality and pretend I'm in a world where there are no liars. I can maintain my intellectual honesty without issue, Cusick. Your arguments fall short.

JP Cusick wrote:
There are reports of ghost and of God in your own hometown and in your own family, because it is reported in every house and in every area of the planet earth and beyond because ghost have been reported even in outer space, LINK.


Every house, in every area of the planet? You can't possibly substantiate that claim. And I can claim this to be a fact. You are presupposing way too much, and offering way too little to be believed. If you're going to keep this up, my tone will only appear hostile because I'm going to apply the exact same level of critical analysis and skepticism as before, which is what your post is in dire need of.

Ghosts on Mars? Because a rock formation vaguely resembles a human shape? The fact is there is a much more reasonable explanation in the form of pattern-seeking tendencies in humans, and our natural instinct to project human traits onto inanimate objects. This is far more documented than ghost sightings, and this is something I can claim without having to resort to hand-waving away skepticism with even more empty claims.

JP Cusick wrote:
It is one thing to rationalize or make excuses for every report of God or of ghosts, but to claim that they are not perceived is dishonest.


You have once again done me a great disservice. Out of anyone here, you are the one being the most hostile.

Let's look at what I wrote.

I will dismiss this as a lofty claim unless you can substantiate it with evidence. Just declaring it to be so doesn't really have any weight behind it.

Where is the evidence that ghosts/spirits exist, much less be perceived?


Wherein do you find any statement that claims of perception don't exist? Where do you even find any claims at all? Where do you find the dishonesty? You projected it into my words.

Unless you can demonstrate that what is perceived is actually a physical manifestation of ghosts/spirits/gods, then all that exists to your claims is that "people claim to see ghosts." That is absolutely as far as you can take all your claims, and yet you add on so many presuppositions that you somehow think you can conclude "therefore ghosts/spirits/gods exist, and claiming people did not see them is dishonest." I am highly critical of those presuppositions, those belligerent remarks, those claims of dishonesty. And I am rapidly losing patience. Either address me as an equal, and avoid using manipulative tactics, or do not make claims about me. There is no alternative option here.

JP Cusick wrote:
The fact remains that there are lots of real places on earth and here in the USA too where people can experience ghost or spirits and I say that can be done anywhere at any time but I would not recommend doing that to those who have to deny the reality because they can not handle the truth.


Where people can CLAIM to experience ghosts or spirits. Unless you can demonstrate truthfulness, then all you are doing is repeating unverified claims in the hopes that your repetition outlasts criticism and skepticism from your peers who are not so gullible as to buy into what you say.

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Re: Perception of Reality or Reality of Perception

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

JP Cusick wrote: The fact that some other people will claim to see fairies or see UFOs or see a ghost or hear from God then yes any of them might be wrong or inaccurate or delusional or mentally ill, and so their own interpretation of whatever they see or experience needs to be evaluated.

I do not accept every claim to be true, but I do not reject every claim either.
Well, if you can dismiss the claims of others as potentially being inaccurate or delusional, then surely you can understand why someone else would just as easily reject your claims as being inaccurate or delusional.
JP Cusick wrote: You imagine stuff and fail to believe your own imagination.
I have never had any confusion between what I experience in reality and what I imagine to experience in my mind.

I question the cognition of those who cannot distinguish between reality and their imagination. As far as I'm concerned people who cannot make that distinction have a handicap that I have no experienced. In fact, it's my understanding that mental health professionals consider the inability to distinguish between reality and imagined fantasy to be a credible sign of mental illness.

In fact research has been done that shows that some people do indeed have brains that are wired in a way that makes it difficult for them to distinguish between reality and fantasy. So we can't blame these people for their inability to distinguish between reality and fantasy, but we can take note that they exist.

If you are among those who cannot tell the difference you may not be able to understand what I've just said. :D

It does make sense that only those who are capable of making this distinction would also be capable of understanding the difference. Obviously those who cannot tell the difference between reality and imagination would not even be aware that a difference exists.
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