God?

europious · Post by **europious** » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:17 pm

So christians, all I want is one argument that will convince me of gods existance. Prove it.

dianaiad · Post by **dianaiad** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:02 pm

austin12345 wrote: There are quit a few convincing arguments to show God exists and they are used in abundance. The first is the Kalam cosmological Argument.
1. Anything that begins to exist has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. therefore the universe began to exist
the cause has to be transcendent of space-time since he created time and space and the didnt yet exist.

OK, I'm a theist...and a follower of what most people think is a particularly weird form of theism. Devout, am I, and a sincere believer, but.....

Not because of the above, which begs a few questions. The first one is...are we SURE that anything that begins to exist has a cause?

Second, even if it has a cause, and therefore the universe has one, where in the above argument did you give any support for that cause being a conscious creator?

Please don't get me wrong; I believe the universe DID have a cause, and that God is it, but the above argument bugs me.

100%atheist · Post by **100%atheist** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:19 pm

austin12345 wrote: There are quit a few convincing arguments to show God exists and they are used in abundance. The first is the Kalam cosmological Argument.
1. Anything that begins to exist has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. therefore the universe began to exist
the cause has to be transcendent of space-time since he created time and space and the didnt yet exist.

oops.
Premise #1 is umbiguous at minimum and false in general.
Then, even if the universe had a cause, and even if the universe was created by an intellectual being, how can you show that it was a god and more specifically YOUR god?
Any idea?

100%atheist · Post by **100%atheist** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:23 pm

dianaiad wrote:
austin12345 wrote: There are quit a few convincing arguments to show God exists and they are used in abundance. The first is the Kalam cosmological Argument.
1. Anything that begins to exist has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. therefore the universe began to exist
the cause has to be transcendent of space-time since he created time and space and the didnt yet exist.
OK, I'm a theist...and a follower of what most people think is a particularly weird form of theism. Devout, am I, and a sincere believer, but.....

Not because of the above, which begs a few questions. The first one is...are we SURE that anything that begins to exist has a cause?

Second, even if it has a cause, and therefore the universe has one, where in the above argument did you give any support for that cause being a conscious creator?

Please don't get me wrong; I believe the universe DID have a cause, and that God is it, but the above argument bugs me.

Diana,
I haven't read your post before I posted mine. The similarities have not been intended.
By the way, you are starting to think like an Atheist sometimes. Want to change your colors?

JohnPaul · Post by **JohnPaul** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:24 pm

baih0000 wrote: Am I the One? You mean, am I the Great One?

No, I cannot claim to be the Great One. I am a mere acolyte.

Surely you recognized the demon Belial, straight out of Christian superstition? He subcontracts for the Archons of Gnosticism too. The Goddess I asked to save you was out of Wicca, of course (my wife was a Wiccan Witch). Your words of anguish have been heard. We are all watching over you with great concern. Have faith!!

No ask yourself are you nuts? Why didn't you read what you have said? I did not say you are the great one. I'm relying on my deep feelings to reason with you and I said I'm following a God who can grant me peace and unity with my enemy, why do you call me nuts? You don't even know what is the right perception of unity. Okay think my foolishness and your foolishness, who is more valid in truth? I got this feeling that you do not even know how to judge. You need to go for a check-up.

Ah, the eternal question of religion: Who is more valid in truth? I assure you, I have given you more truth than you will find elsewhere. Many here want to "reason" with me about their God. That is why I have chosen you.

southern cross · Post by **southern cross** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:24 pm

austin12345 wrote: There are quit a few convincing arguments to show God exists and they are used in abundance. The first is the Kalam cosmological Argument.
1. Anything that begins to exist has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. therefore the universe began to exist
the cause has to be transcendent of space-time since he created time and space and the didnt yet exist.

I think it says something about those who find this convincing.

austin12345 · Post by **austin12345** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:35 pm

The first reason that anything beginst to exist has a cause is because of two reasons.
1. Ex nihilo, nihil fit. Or out of nothing nothing comes. Nothing is literall not anything. It has no poterntialities no possibilities no powers. Litterally nothing can happen to it.
2. You dont expect to go home from the mall one day and see a horse sitting in your room eating the bed sheets. And if you do you know that it didnt just pop into being uncaused out of nothing. Someone had to put it there. It is the same with the universe. It doesnt just pop up and exist out of nothing.

Also this God would have to be transcendant of space since if space began it didnt exist at one point. If it didnt exist yet has a cause the cause cant be in space or be physical at all. Also transcendent of time as well. Why? Time is the measure of something's existence starting at its beginning. Time began when something begins. God being infinite and eternal is by definition timeless. Also time itself cant be eternal. Saying it is leads to a self defeating argument. THis is that you cant travers infinites because you could never get to this point in time. There would always be more time before it that you had to travel. In fact you couldnt get to any point in time because any point you pick would have an infinite amount of time before it and you could never get to it do to there being another year second or minute before it on to infinity that you couldnt travel. So time doesnt exist. This leads to obvious obsurdities since time does exist. Therefore it began. The cause of time has to be timeless for the some reason he has to be non physical and space less.

The God is the Christian God because of the self revelation of God in the person Jesus of Nazerath. ALso all the gods of the world religions have a god within space-time which doesnt fit our criteria. For example allah was a pagan moon god, a tribal diety within time existing in the physical heaven or what we call space. The only God fitting of the criterean is the Judeo-Christian God YHWH aka JESUS!

JohnPaul · Post by **JohnPaul** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:43 pm

austin12345 wrote: There are quit a few convincing arguments to show God exists and they are used in abundance. The first is the Kalam cosmological Argument.
1. Anything that begins to exist has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. therefore the universe began to exist
the cause has to be transcendent of space-time since he created time and space and the didnt yet exist.

With all due respect, I think you left something out of an already absurd and often refuted argument. Where do you connect any of this with a god? Oh, of course!! You simply insert the name of your favorite god into the last line. I have often used the same logic to prove that my pet cat Snippy created the universe.

southern cross · Post by **southern cross** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:43 pm

[Replying to post 126 by austin12345]

So you are certain that space and time at some stage did not exist? What knowledge to you possess that would support this certitude?

dianaiad · Post by **dianaiad** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:48 pm

100%atheist wrote:
dianaiad wrote:
austin12345 wrote: There are quit a few convincing arguments to show God exists and they are used in abundance. The first is the Kalam cosmological Argument.
1. Anything that begins to exist has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. therefore the universe began to exist
the cause has to be transcendent of space-time since he created time and space and the didnt yet exist.
OK, I'm a theist...and a follower of what most people think is a particularly weird form of theism. Devout, am I, and a sincere believer, but.....

Not because of the above, which begs a few questions. The first one is...are we SURE that anything that begins to exist has a cause?

Second, even if it has a cause, and therefore the universe has one, where in the above argument did you give any support for that cause being a conscious creator?

Please don't get me wrong; I believe the universe DID have a cause, and that God is it, but the above argument bugs me.

Diana,
I haven't read your post before I posted mine. The similarities have not been intended.
By the way, you are starting to think like an Atheist sometimes. Want to change your colors?

(thinking)

nah.

austin12345 · Post by **austin12345** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:52 pm

The way you connect this with God is as I arleady stated the necessity for creation. If you both read what I wrote than you will understand what I said. Again nothing creates itself. THe being that created this has to be transcendant of space and time. That being can only be God or numbers. But numbers, though necessary dont create nor do they exist without God since if God didnt exist and no physical space time numbers wouldnt either.

Time began because of self defeating argument saying its eternal as I have shown. ALso the universe began and recent science has shown that. For example the bord Guth Vilenkin theory of 2003. Showed any universe that expands on average cannot be past eteranal but must have a space time boundary. The big bang also shows this as do impossibilities of impossible time, expandind universe, cosmic background radiation, the TGR etc.
Velinken himeslef said that no other theory can expand the universe into eternity. Rough quote.