NT Manuscripts

[Iasion]

Greetings all,

I thought readers may be interested in my investigation of te NT MSS.

I especially draw 1John2_26's attention to the 2nd section, and look forward to his reply.


NT manuscript attestation

Claims about the NT being the "best-attested" confuse two UN-related issues -
* reliability of the text,
* truthfulness of the contents.

Firstly, it is not true that the NT is "the best-attested document in all of antiquity" because there are some documents even older than the NT for which we have the ORIGINAL literally carved in stone (e.g. Behistun inscription, Egyptian tomb inscriptions, the Rosetta Stone, the Moabite Stone) - making them absolutely 100% accurately attested from the original because they ARE the original, and thus much better attested than the NT.
http://visopsys.org/andy/essays/darius-bisitun.html

It's true the NT is fairly well-attested (in terms of quantity) compared to SOME ancient writings - in the sense that we have many old copies (24,000 or more in total). However the vast majority of these copies are from the middle-ages. The number of NT manuscripts from before the dark ages is about a hundred.

But there are NO originals for ANY of the NT writings - all we have is copies of copies, all varying from each other (that's right - every single manuscript we have is slightly different from every other - not counting very tiny scraps) from long after the alleged events :
* NO copies from 1st century,
* a few tiny fragments from 2nd century (e.g. P52, P90),
* a few UNCOMPLETE copies from late 2nd / early 3rd (e.g. P75, P46),
* several fairly complete copies in 3rd / 4th century.
List by century :
http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/extras/Robinson-list.html
Detailed contents of all NT MSS :
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/st ... /EGBMP.htm

And, there is considerable variation in Gospel manuscripts, and it often DOES reach to core beliefs and events :

The words of God at the baptism in early MSS and quotes have "...this day have I begotten thee" (echoing Psalm 2) - later, as dogma about when Jesus become god had crystallized, thus phrase became "..in thee I am well pleased". If scribes can change the alleged words of God, they can change anything.
Another important variation is the ending of G.Mark - there are four different endings to this Gospels in various MSS, the original ending being 16:8
Other MSS variations include :
* the issue of salvation through the Christ's Blood,
* the Trinity - found in no MSS before the 16th century!
* the Lord's prayer - much variations in manuscripts,
* the names of the 12 apostles are highly variable in MSS and indeed the Gospels.
http://members.aol.com/PS418/manuscript.html

These are just some issues of manuscripts variations - contradictions between different Gospel's versions of the Jesus stories is another very smelly kettle of fish :
* the widely variant birth stories,
* the names of the 12 apostles vary among Gospels.
* the completely irreconcilable Easter morning stories :
http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/stone.php



Quantity of manuscripts irrelevant to truth

But more importantly, 1John2_26, like many apologists, has confused two fundamentally different issues - he is arguing that because we have so many copies this proves the contents true. Well, this is obviously not true - the number of copies has nothing to do with the truth of the contents. Consider -

* the Iliad - over 600 manuscripts, more than the NT until after 1000AD - does this mean that the Iliad was more true than the NT until about 1000AD, but from the middle ages on, the NT became MORE TRUE than the Iliad?

* the works of 10thC. Yen-Shou of Hangchow - about 400,000 copies exist, about 4000 times as many copies as NT copies at that time - does this make the work over 4000 times MORE TRUE than the NT?

* the Book of Mormon - there are millions of copies of this work, many dating maybe a FEW YEARS after the original - would this make the Book of Mormon much MORE TRUE than the NT?

* the Lord of the Rings - there are many millions of copies of this work, (including the original manuscript AFAIK), dating from very soon after its writing - does this makes the Lord of the Rings of vastly more true than the NT?

No.
It should be obvious that the NUMBER of copies attesting to a work gives no support to the truth of the contents - yet apologists like 1John2_26 repeatedly bring this point up as if it proves something.


Iasion

[theleftone]

And, there is considerable variation in Gospel manuscripts, and it often DOES reach to core beliefs and events

What are the core beliefs of Christianity? Which events would be the core events?

like many apologists

Which apologists?

[Tilia]

the Lord of the Rings - there are many millions of copies of this work, (including the original manuscript AFAIK), dating from very soon after its writing - does this makes the Lord of the Rings of vastly more true than the NT?

Apparently not, if public opinion is the criterion. It seems that The Lord of the Rings, known to be printed precisely as the author intended, despite its great entertainment value, carries no objective truth at all, whereas the Bible, garbled, contradictory, unreliable, corrupted, does.

[Iasion]

Greetings,

What are the core beliefs of Christianity? Which events would be the core events?

Pardon?
I specifically LISTED some of the beliefs which were variant and which I considered "core beliefs".

Why did you ignore them?

Why did you ignore the MSS variations I listed?


Here they are again :

• The words of God at the baptism in early MSS and quotes have "...this day have I begotten thee" (echoing Psalm 2) - later, as dogma about when Jesus become god had crystallized, thus phrase became "..in thee I am well pleased". If scribes can change the alleged words of God, they can change anything.
• Another important variation is the resurrection ending of G.Mark - there are four different endings to this Gospels in various MSS, the original ending being 16:8
• the issue of salvation through the Christ's Blood,
• the Trinity - found in no MSS before the 16th century!
• the Lord's prayer - much variations in manuscripts,
• the names of the 12 apostles are highly variable in MSS and indeed the Gospels.

Which apologists?

Such as 1John2_26, or Pastor_Dave, or Willowtree, or Ray Martinez.

What on earth was the point of that question?

Iasion

[Iasion]

Greetings Tilia,

Still can't get that quote tag right?
Keep trying

Apparently not, if public opinion is the criterion. It seems that The Lord of the Rings, known to be printed precisely as the author intended, despite its great entertainment value, carries no objective truth at all, whereas the Bible, garbled, contradictory, unreliable, corrupted, does.

Please don't preach here.

This is a DEBATING FORUM.

Iasion

[Tilia]

Apparently not, if public opinion is the criterion. It seems that The Lord of the Rings, known to be printed precisely as the author intended, despite its great entertainment value, carries no objective truth at all, whereas the Bible, garbled, contradictory, unreliable, corrupted, does.

Please don't preach here.

Either you don't understand anything very subtle, or you do, and don't like what you understand. Let me put it so that there can be no escape.

Nobody believes that Tolkien's books represent reality; you won't find a single Church of the Middle Earth in your town. The books are popular, but then so are The Simpsons.

But you will find one church that reckons to follow Jesus Christ in your town. Maybe more.

Get out of that.

[juliod]

Nobody believes that Tolkien's books represent reality

I don't quite understand you. Tolkien's writings tell stories with moral themes. So does the bible. Which "truths" are there in the bible that are not present in Tolkien? Or Shakespear?

The question here is reliablity of the copies of the manuscripts. We can be sure that the text of the Lord of the Rings is very close to the original. But we can have no similar confidence in the bible.

BTW, I think Iasion has been doing a real bang-up job in these recent threads.

DanZ

[Tilia]

Nobody believes that Tolkien's books represent reality

I don't quite understand you. Tolkien's writings tell stories with moral themes.

How can writings tell stories? Surely writings are stories, or they aren't.

If you frame your question properly, poster, you may find that it is not worth asking.

[1John2_26]

Oh what would this site be without a practicing Christian to attack?

The same old dribble about manuscript evidence? Ho hum.

Deal with the fact that the New Testament is accurate to what happened in Judea all the way to the cross and resurrection.

Deny to agree, that is the only position of the opposition.

In alll of the copies of copies was Jesus NOT crucified? Not resurrected?

The followers of Jesus literally carved into stone about Him.

The catacombs?

By the way, has anyone ever thought that if a group of people wanted to invent a totalitarian political system to rule the world by force, the sentences about "loving your enemies" and "doing good to those that hate you, may have found and editor or two to remove them?

Darn that word "honesty."

Graffitti is quite common in the catacombs and its dates cover the 2000 year span. The early christians did not use our modern day spray paint of course, but employed simple cutting tools. Examples of the graffitti found in the catacombs are the messages left by the early Christians on the tombs or walls. There are however also written statements on walls such as one left by an 18th century archeologist who felt himself a priveledged pioneer. He stumbled into a hidden chamber by accident and felt compelled to leave his name and date of discovery. Some early pilgrims also inscribed brief devotional statements at the tombs of the martyrs.

For modern archeology graffiti has often provided valuable clues and information. The scientific importance of such finds are as valuable as the meaning they impart upon us today. The simple yet profound and human message left by the hand of a christian two thousand years ago can not but inspire and move us.

Figures and Personalities

There are a number of anonymous figures as well as actual historical personalities depicted in the frescoes and sarcophagi.


The Figure in Prayer
Saints and Personalities
The Banquet scenes
The Deceased

The Figure in Prayer is usually a person with its arms outstretched. It can be an anonymous person or anyone of the other personalities mentioned above. The pagans prayed with their arms outstretched, and the Christians, as Origen writes, raised their arms further to heaven to remember Jesus on the cross.

Many early church personalities appear in the frescoes. Some are: Saints Peter and Paul, St. Cecilia, St. Cyprian and St. Eusibius.

There are many Banquet scenes depicting a group of people sitting at the table in the customary fashion of antiquity. Most of these images refer to the eucharistic remembrance of the Last Supper.

It is not uncommon to find painted or sculptured images of the deceased. In the Cubicle of the Veiled Woman located in the Catacombs of Priscilla, we note three moments in the life of this unknown woman:

her matrimony or introduction into the faith.
holding her newborn child.
praying with her arms outstretched.

On the sarcophagi, the deceased are usually depicted at the center of the front panel, flanked on both sides by reliefs of biblical episodes.

The Decorative Elements

The christians, like the pagans, employed decorative elements, such as vines, flowers, birds, architectural lines and drawings. While the decorative intention of these images should be emphasized, it is not always the case to presume the motiffs had no meaning.

For the pagans the vine was symbol of rebirth, because the wine harvest represented the continuos cycle of life. For the christians, a new idea of the vine was developed. Jesus was now the true vine of eternal life, and those who believed in Him were the branches. "I am the vine, ye are the branches". [Gospel of John, Ch.15 ver.5]

The symbols

The signs and symbols we find painted in the frescoes, inscribed on the marble sarcophagi and slabs, and etched on the walls of the catacombs all deal with the christian faith, even though some symbols are taken directly from the pagan repertoire.

Ancient cultures loved the use of symbols to express ideas. The peacock for the pagans was the symbol of eternal life. However, not all the pagans shared the idea of an afterlife, and for those who did, it was one clouded in mystery and wrapped in a shadowy world of obscurity. Pagan art strongly reflects this anguish, which was a vision of pain and sorrow.

The Christians adopted the symbol of the peacock, but developed a deeper meaning. Because of Revelation, the obscurity of death was cancelled by the victory of Christ's resurrection. The peacock therefore became the symbol of the eternal life of the soul.

The dove represented the peace and happiness of the soul, while the anchor represented hope in Jesus.

Symbols often were a synthesis of more than one idea. The anchor is an example. By its very functional nature, it represents the ideas of stability, security, and hope because it confirms the safe arrival of the ship at port after a perilous journey at sea.

By turning the anchor upside down, the greek letter TAU was formed, and the "T" resembled the shape of the CROSS. Thus the symbolism of the anchor was enriched by this additional element. Hope in Jesus represented the secure port of Salvation, which came about through His crucifixion and resurrection.

The fish was perhaps the favorite christian symbol, and we note the richness of its meaning.

The biblical and pagan cultural background was again important in the development of the symbol.

The New Testament abounds with references to fish. We recall Christ telling his disciples he will make them fishers of men. [Gospel of Matthew, Ch.4 ver.19] The fish therefore became the symbol of the Christian. He was saved in the net of the gospel news preached by the fishermen apostles.

The most important point regarding the symbol of the fish is that in Greek the word fish was written as "ICHTHYS". There are many misconceptions that the Christian used the word fish as a secret code or password. This is false and demonstrates a lack of history.

The word fish was not a secret code, but rather formed an acrostic, which was a typical classical style of poetry by which the letters of a word were ordered to form a phrase, or vice versa. In this case we can vertically read the greek word for fish:


Iesus
CHristos
THeou
Yios
Soter

Each letter in the word fish formed a word. The meaning of each greek word formed by the letters ICHTHYS are:

Iesus = Jesus
CHristos = Christ
THeou = of God
Yios = Son
Soter = Saviour.

Taken as an acrostic, the greek word for fish acquired a very profound meaning for the Christian. The phrase read: Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour. It was the primitive credo, the fundamental article of faith because it synthesized the theological essence the true follower of Christ was called to profess.

The Bible

The Bible occupies a very important role in the interpretation of catacomb art, whether it be frescoess or scultpures. Without a reference to Biblical literature, the images within the catacombs could not be understood, just as Etruscan funerary images would be unintelligible without reference to mythological literature. For further information see the subject bible.

[juliod]

In alll of the copies of copies was Jesus NOT crucified? Not resurrected?

That's right. And that's what we've been trying to get through to you. Those stories about crucifixion, etc, are demonstrably later in origin than other christian writings that know nothing of those events.

If I remember right (I'll have to dig out my copy of Metzger's Canon of the New Testement) the earliest christian canon (a list or collection of authentic books) rejected 3 of the 4 Gospels and included only a heavily redacted version of the fourth. The Gospels were then considered a judaic intrusion into genuine christian teachings.

How do you know what should be in the bible?

DanZ