If all you knew about Jesus

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Elijah John
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If all you knew about Jesus

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #31

Post by Elijah John »

ttruscott wrote: "Knew about"? No...but "put your faith in His death for you," yes.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
This verse seems to indicate it is necessary to HEAR Jesus word, and believe in YHVH who sent him.

Nothing about the crucifixion, or Paul's interpretation (Paul's word) of the theological significance of the crucifixion.

So if one were only to believe in Paul's word regarding the crucifixion, how would that be "hearing Jesus" and what he taught?

Why did Jesus bother to preach at all? If all that's necessary is to believe Jesus died on the cross to "pay for our sins", then (to put a twist on Paul) Jesus taught in vain.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #32

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Deleted 1-18-16 by TotN
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

Elijah John
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Post #33

Post by Elijah John »

Moderator Intervention

Moved this post to Science and Religion,...was far afield from the OP, and was, in effect, a derailment.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 590#762590

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Moderator interventions do not count as a strike against any posters. They are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels that some sort of intervention is required.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Aldarron
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Post #34

Post by Aldarron »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote: [Replying to Volbrigade]
Volbrigade wrote: Of course a reasonable person should have doubts. It is an outrageous claim. The nature of the claim, and what it has produced for the 2,000 years since it was made, warrants a full investigation into its veracity.
The only way to investigate the story for veracity, is to give careful consideration to the story that we have, such that it is. The story of Paul's conversion is contained in Acts 9. So let's make a careful evaluation of the story in Acts. According to Acts 9, while on the road to Damascus Paul became stricken. Blind and confused, Paul had to be taken into Damascus where he was left at the home of a christian man to be tended to. It's a significant point. Acts specifically indicates that Paul went three days without drinking. Whatever the cause, Paul was clearly severely dehydrated. Three days without water is a critical condition, and one that can lead to death. Severe dehydration commonly effects the eyesight, as the vitreous fluid in the eye thickens sight is diminished. Dehydration also causes the neurons in the brain to misfire from lack of fluid, resulting in hallucinations. Hallucinations in a man three days with out drinking aren't merely likely, they are inevitable.

So, sick and disoriented Paul had to be helped into the city by his traveling companions who then left him at the home of a CHRISTIAN MAN to be cared for. Sick and delirious, and while being tended to and prayed over by a CHRISTIAN MAN, Paul came to believe after his recovery that during his illness he had experienced a face to face visitation with the years dead Jesus. This experience proved to be life changing for Paul and after his recovery Paul became a confirmed Christian. Hardly a surprise, really, given what he fully believed that what he believed he experienced was real actual, and his feeling of gratitude for the Christian man that had probably saved his life. But we in the 21st century, in the light of reason and logic, are left to consider whether it is more reasonable to conclude that Paul, in his delirium, and while being tended to and prayed over by a Christian, hallucinated a vision of Jesus. Or, conversely, whether it is reasonable to conclude that Paul actually MET WITH AND CONVERSED WITH A DEAD MAN! I notice that which side of this question opinion tends to fall appears to have a direct correlation to whether or not a person has been programmed from an early age to uncritically accept stories of flying reanimated corpses, and the like, as undeniably true. .........
TotN, I've enjoyed your posts in this thread and find myself in general agreement. I wanted to point out that you have set up an either/or here that is not the case. There are plenty of fundamentalist believers who suppose Paul to have had an epileptic fit and subsequent hallucinations, just as you say. The thing is they also believe it was all God directed, e.g. God used an epileptic fit as a means of turning Paul around. They don't believe, regardless of what Paul may have thought, that there was an actual, physical appearance because none of Paul's companions saw what he saw.

That's what I was taught back in the day.

Another point, the op mentioned "it is said" Paul never saw Christ. Let's be clear, nobody knows whether Paul ever heard, saw, or interacted in any way with Jesus during his lifetime, or not. He might have. There's no value in simply assuming either way.

atheist buddy
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #35

Post by atheist buddy »

Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
It is said that the butler Alfred Pennyworth never met Batman in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Batman is awesome".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Batman was that "he wears bulletproof spandex", would that be enough for admiration?

If you knew nothing of Batman's gadgets, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he wears spandex for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Comicon lore teach?


What's my point here? STOP BELIEVING IN FAIRY TALES. YOU SOUND RIDICULOUS!

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dianaiad
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Post #36

Post by dianaiad »

atheist buddy wrote:
Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
It is said that the butler Alfred Pennyworth never met Batman in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Batman is awesome".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Batman was that "he wears bulletproof spandex", would that be enough for admiration?

If you knew nothing of Batman's gadgets, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he wears spandex for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Comicon lore teach?


What's my point here? STOP BELIEVING IN FAIRY TALES. YOU SOUND RIDICULOUS!
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ttruscott
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #37

Post by ttruscott »

Elijah John wrote:
Why did Jesus bother to preach at all? If all that's necessary is to believe Jesus died on the cross to "pay for our sins", then (to put a twist on Paul) Jesus taught in vain.
So once again we come to the difference in the English between to put your faith in someone and to believe in someone. To believe as an understanding of fact is not the same as to have faith because the demons believe and tremble.

All the preaching and all the teaching is to help the sinful elect repent and return to their first commitment to put their faith/trust in His word that if they ever should sin, they could find salvation in Him, a return greatly complicated by their having sinned and became addicted to evil.

To believe His word is to put your faith/trust in His gospel of salvation from sin by His blood and the resurrection of the body. This seems simple I guess but it includes: faith that GOD exists and will reward those who seek HIM, faith that we are indeed sinners addicted to evil and in need of a saviour to set us free, faith that His work to set us free is done and we are indeed on our path to sanctification, faith that His resurrection was real and that we also will be resurrected in our time, and faith in the necessity of cleansing the universe from all evil.

This is all helped by a generous faith in the bible as a whole and everyone's teaching about spiritual truth, even Paul's.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

Elijah John
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #38

Post by Elijah John »

ttruscott wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Why did Jesus bother to preach at all? If all that's necessary is to believe Jesus died on the cross to "pay for our sins", then (to put a twist on Paul) Jesus taught in vain.
So once again we come to the difference in the English between to put your faith in someone and to believe in someone. To believe as an understanding of fact is not the same as to have faith because the demons believe and tremble.

All the preaching and all the teaching is to help the sinful elect repent and return to their first commitment to put their faith/trust in His word that if they ever should sin, they could find salvation in Him, a return greatly complicated by their having sinned and became addicted to evil.

To believe His word is to put your faith/trust in His gospel of salvation from sin by His blood and the resurrection of the body. This seems simple I guess but it includes: faith that GOD exists and will reward those who seek HIM, faith that we are indeed sinners addicted to evil and in need of a saviour to set us free, faith that His work to set us free is done and we are indeed on our path to sanctification, faith that His resurrection was real and that we also will be resurrected in our time, and faith in the necessity of cleansing the universe from all evil.

This is all helped by a generous faith in the bible as a whole and everyone's teaching about spiritual truth, even Paul's.
Though we disagree on a lot of the details, thank you for addressing the OP and by so doing, for your help in bringing the thread back on track.

So the preaching was necessary to bring folks to repentance, but why isn't repentance enough? We agree on the distinction between belief as intellectual acceptance, vs belief as trust in....but why the blood? (NT OR OT blood sacrifice)

Couldn't folks (elect, sinful elect etc) honor YHVH simply by turning TO YHVH and accepting Him as God, as per the First Commandment and Shema?

And embracing the subsequent 9 of the Ten Commandments as well, the moral law?

And isn't this, in effect, what Jesus preached, to repent embrace the Ten from the heart? And by embracing the Ten, one automatically embraces YHVH.

The references to sin being "paid for" are scant in the Gospels, but they predominate with Paul.

Also, Paul condemns even the moral Law as only prosecutorial, and death bringing. Whereas in Psalms, Proverbs the Torah, and the Prophets, and the Didache, the Law is continually celebrated as life-giving, and life affirming.
Last edited by Elijah John on Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Post #39

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

[Replying to Aldarron]
Aldarron wrote: TotN, I've enjoyed your posts in this thread and find myself in general agreement. I wanted to point out that you have set up an either/or here that is not the case. There are plenty of fundamentalist believers who suppose Paul to have had an epileptic fit and subsequent hallucinations, just as you say. The thing is they also believe it was all God directed, e.g. God used an epileptic fit as a means of turning Paul around. They don't believe, regardless of what Paul may have thought, that there was an actual, physical appearance because none of Paul's companions saw what he saw.

That's what I was taught back in the day.
I am aware of the epilepsy theory. It is partially based on the story of Paul's collapse while traveling to Damascus, and on his "thorn in the flesh" statement in 2Cor. I don't consider the evidence to be conclusive, so I tend to stay away from the epilepsy theory. Acts 9 very specifically indicates that he went 3 days with out drinking during this experience. To go three days without drinking in an arid environment puts him quite literally at death's door.

Wikipedia
"A typical person will lose minimally two to maximally four liters of water per day under ordinary conditions, and more in hot, dry, or cold weather. Four to six liters of water or other liquids are generally required each day in the wilderness to avoid dehydration and to keep the body functioning properly." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_skills

Wikipedia
"'Dehydration', is thus a term that has loosely been used to mean loss of water, regardless of whether it is as water and solutes (mainly sodium) or free water. Those who refer to hypotonic dehydration therefore refer to solute loss and thus loss of intravascular volume but in the presence of exaggerated intravascular volume depletion for a given amount of total body water gain. It is true that neurological complications can occur in hypotonic and hypertonic states. The former can lead to seizures, while the latter can lead to osmotic cerebral edema upon rapid rehydration."

"For severe cases of dehydration where fainting, unconsciousness, or other severely inhibiting symptom is present (the patient is incapable of standing or thinking clearly), emergency attention is required. Fluids containing a proper balance of replacement electrolytes are given orally or intravenously with continuing assessment of electrolyte status; complete resolution is the norm in all but the most extreme cases."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydration

Paul DOES seem to have experienced some kind of an ongoing issue, a "thorn in the flesh" as he calls it. Those who have experienced severe dehydration and heatstroke are typically sensitive to heat, and are susceptible to repeated occurrences of fainting and even seizures for the rest of their lives. The author of Acts has recorded much of the nature of Paul's "grave" illness while in Damascus for us pretty well. Three days without drinking in a dry arid climate lets us know unambiguously that Paul was very sick in a life threatening way. We certainly have every reason to expect that he would be seeing things in his fevered brain that were not real. Talking to dead people for instance. But of course "the thorn" in his flesh COULD well have been a condition he had prior to his trip to Damascus.

But did Paul ACTUALLY meet with the years dead Jesus while recuperating at the Christian man's home in Damascus? For most people the likely answer to this question, yes or no, depends on whether they believe in ghosts or not. Those who believe in ghosts see no problem here at all.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #40

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
Let me address the OP directly.

"If all you knew about Jesus was that he 'died for your sins' would that be enough for salvation? "

Does a strict interpretation of the question somehow prevent me from understanding that Jesus lived 2,000 years ago? Because EVERYONE who lived 2,000 years ago died, and they did not do it for anyone else's "sins." They died because people do not live 2,000 years.

Otherwise, no claim that some guy whom I otherwise apparently knew nothing else about at all, would convince me much of anything at all.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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