The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christianity

[liamconnor]

This is different from my previous Threads. I give first what is considered by numerous scholars representing the full gamut of theological beliefs to be historical bedrock. I then give what I think the "best" non-divine explanation of the early Jesus movement will entail.

1. Jesus is an historical figure.
2. Jesus was regarded by his contemporaries as a exorcist and miracle worker.
3. He was crucified under the auspice of Pontius Pilate
4. He was buried in a tomb
5. His tomb was discovered empty by female followers of his
6. Within two months of his burial, followers of his believed and declared that he had been raised, they believed that this encounter involved such sensory interactions as touch and conversation.
7. Jesus’ brother, James, believed he had an encounter with the risen Jesus
8. Within three years Paul, a Pharisee who zealously persecuted the Jesus-movement in Palestine, had an experience which he believed to be an encounter with the risen Jesus. This encounter differed from mere visions which even other Christians report (i.e. Ananias Acts 9:5; 1 Cor. 15).


Best “natural� Hypothesis: (I have borrowed from Vermes, Sanders, and other non-Christian scholars).

1) Jesus’ body was taken by a non-disciple leaving the tomb empty: there is no historical data suggesting why. All explanations are purely speculative.

2) His tomb was discovered empty by women two days after his death (crucified and buried on Friday; unobserved on the Sabbath; found empty on Sunday morn) and verified by at least a couple of Jesus' closest disciples--Peter most certainly.

3) Not much later (within a little more than a month of his death), several of his disciples, collectively and individually, suffered complex hallucinations—we can call them uniform hallucinations. In the case of individual hallucinations, the uniform general impression was a vocation—“go and tell� and the content of the vocation was generally the same. In the case of collective hallucinations, the victims saw and heard the very same things.

Question: Do you think this is a good/plausible explanation for Christianity's origins?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

This is different from my previous Threads. I give what I think the "best" non-divine explanation of the early Jesus movement will entail.

Best “natural� Hypothesis: (I have borrowed from Vermes, Sanders, and other non-Christian scholars).

1) Jesus’ body was taken by a non-disciple leaving the tomb empty: there is no historical data suggesting why. All explanations are purely speculative.

2) His tomb was discovered empty by women two days after his death (crucified and buried on Friday; unobserved on the Sabbath; found empty on Sunday morn) and verified by at least a couple of Jesus' closest disciples--Peter most certainly.

3) Not much later (within a little more than a month of his death), several of his disciples, collectively and individually, suffered complex hallucinations—we can call them uniform hallucinations. In the case of individual hallucinations, the uniform general impression was a vocation—“go and tell� and the content of the vocation was generally the same. In the case of collective hallucinations, the victims saw and heard the very same things.

Question: Do you think this is a good/plausible explanation for Christianity's origins?

1) Jesus’ body was taken by a non-disciple leaving the tomb empty: there is no historical data suggesting why. All explanations are purely speculative.

The entire story is "purely speculative."

Why would "non disciples" want the body of an executed criminal? Especially since the disciples of Jesus were already in legal possession of it. The disciples clearly had the means, motive, and opportunity to have relocated the body.

A. MEANS. Joseph, the rich man, was clearly a man of means. Only a man of means could have hoped to have been granted an audience with, and a favor from, the Roman governor. Along with Joseph we have an individual names Nicodemus, the eleven remaining apostles, and some several dozens of other followers of Jesus on hand to potentially be utilized in the undertaking. More then enough means to accomplish the feat. Once the body of Jesus had been procured from the Romans, it was then simply a matter of prepping the body for a journey, using the convenience of Joseph's tomb for privacy, and then taking the corpse elsewhere to effect it's actual final resting place, closing the door (the stone) behind them when they left. No great trick or slight of hand required. THE DISCIPLES HAD THE MEANS.

B. Motive.
Deut.21
[22] And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
[23] His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Crucifixion was the most lowly and ignominious death possible for a Jew. Jesus was beaten and hung up for death. A scandalous death for him, his family, and for his cause. This was precisely the intention the priests had in pressing the Roman governor for his crucifixion. It should have served to abruptly put an end to Jesus' movement. On the other hand, the claim that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead, if true, could only have been as a result of an act of God. Claiming that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead served to completely overturn the intention of the Jewish authorities and undo all that they had attempted. And it worked far better than they could possibly have anticipated, historically.

C. OPPORTUNITY. The disciples not only had the opportunity to relocate the body, THEY HAD THE BODY, given to them by Pilate to do with as they chose. The disciples of Jesus were in fact the last ones to be in certain possession of the body. THE DISCIPLES HAD THE OPPORTUNITY.

2) His tomb was discovered empty by women two days after his death (crucified and buried on Friday; unobserved on the Sabbath; found empty on Sunday morn) and verified by at least a couple of Jesus' closest disciples--Peter most certainly.

Mark 16:
[1] And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
[2] And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
[3] And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
[4] And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

So, at first light on Sunday morning out went the three Marys, intent on slarhering more ointment on a corpse already slathered in 100 pounds of ointment, knowing full well that they had absolutely NO chance of reaching the body, based on the forlorn, and all but unbelievable, hope that there just might be some nice strange men who just happened to be hanging out in a graveyard at night who would kindly agree to move the great stone for them.

Or perhaps they thought that the nice soldiers who have been placed at the tomb with expressed orders to allow no entry, would kindly violate their orders, break the official seals, and allow the woman to continue on with their ever so necessary slathering.

These verses virtually scream conspiracy. Because the woman would have had no hope of reaching the body of Jesus had the stone been in place. The woman were fully aware that the tomb was open, and that the body of Jesus was gone. Otherwise the trip to the tomb would have been useless. What their trip actually accomplished was to allow them to spread the story that the tomb was open and empty, and on the third day as promised, at the earliest possible time.

3) Not much later (within a little more than a month of his death), several of his disciples, collectively and individually, suffered complex hallucinations—we can call them uniform hallucinations. In the case of individual hallucinations, the uniform general impression was a vocation—“go and tell� and the content of the vocation was generally the same. In the case of collective hallucinations, the victims saw and heard the very same things.

Matthew 27:64 indicates the the Jewish authorities fully believed that the disciples of Jesus had a motive for moving the body of Jesus. The Jewish authorities, WHO WERE ACTUALLY PRESENT AT THE TIME TO JUDGE THE SITUATION, believed strongly enough in fact to go a graveyard on a high holy day to secure the tomb. And what they feared the disciples intended to do is exactly what occurred. The tomb proved to be empty, and the disciples spread the rumor that Jesus had risen from the dead.

This IS a perfectly plausible explanation for the origin of the rumor of the risen Jesus.

[liamconnor]

This is different from my previous Threads. I give what I think the "best" non-divine explanation of the early Jesus movement will entail.

Best “natural� Hypothesis: (I have borrowed from Vermes, Sanders, and other non-Christian scholars).

1) Jesus’ body was taken by a non-disciple leaving the tomb empty: there is no historical data suggesting why. All explanations are purely speculative.

2) His tomb was discovered empty by women two days after his death (crucified and buried on Friday; unobserved on the Sabbath; found empty on Sunday morn) and verified by at least a couple of Jesus' closest disciples--Peter most certainly.

3) Not much later (within a little more than a month of his death), several of his disciples, collectively and individually, suffered complex hallucinations—we can call them uniform hallucinations. In the case of individual hallucinations, the uniform general impression was a vocation—“go and tell� and the content of the vocation was generally the same. In the case of collective hallucinations, the victims saw and heard the very same things.

Question: Do you think this is a good/plausible explanation for Christianity's origins?

1) Jesus’ body was taken by a non-disciple leaving the tomb empty: there is no historical data suggesting why. All explanations are purely speculative.

The entire story is "purely speculative."

Why would "non disciples" want the body of an executed criminal? Especially since the disciples of Jesus were already in legal possession of it. The disciples clearly had the means, motive, and opportunity to have relocated the body.

A. MEANS. Joseph, the rich man, was clearly a man of means. Only a man of means could have hoped to have been granted an audience with, and a favor from, the Roman governor. Along with Joseph we have an individual names Nicodemus, the eleven remaining apostles, and some several dozens of other followers of Jesus on hand to potentially be utilized in the undertaking. More then enough means to accomplish the feat. Once the body of Jesus had been procured from the Romans, it was then simply a matter of prepping the body for a journey, using the convenience of Joseph's tomb for privacy, and then taking the corpse elsewhere to effect it's actual final resting place, closing the door (the stone) behind them when they left. No great trick or slight of hand required. THE DISCIPLES HAD THE MEANS.

B. Motive.
Deut.21
[22] And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
[23] His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Crucifixion was the most lowly and ignominious death possible for a Jew. Jesus was beaten and hung up for death. A scandalous death for him, his family, and for his cause. This was precisely the intention the priests had in pressing the Roman governor for his crucifixion. It should have served to abruptly put an end to Jesus' movement. On the other hand, the claim that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead, if true, could only have been as a result of an act of God. Claiming that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead served to completely overturn the intention of the Jewish authorities and undo all that they had attempted. And it worked far better than they could possibly have anticipated, historically.

C. OPPORTUNITY. The disciples not only had the opportunity to relocate the body, THEY HAD THE BODY, given to them by Pilate to do with as they chose. The disciples of Jesus were in fact the last ones to be in certain possession of the body. THE DISCIPLES HAD THE OPPORTUNITY.

2) His tomb was discovered empty by women two days after his death (crucified and buried on Friday; unobserved on the Sabbath; found empty on Sunday morn) and verified by at least a couple of Jesus' closest disciples--Peter most certainly.

Mark 16:
[1] And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
[2] And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
[3] And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
[4] And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

So, at first light on Sunday morning out went the three Marys, intent on slarhering more ointment on a corpse already slathered in 100 pounds of ointment, knowing full well that they had absolutely NO chance of reaching the body, based on the forlorn, and all but unbelievable, hope that there just might be some nice strange men who just happened to be hanging out in a graveyard at night who would kindly agree to move the great stone for them.

Or perhaps they thought that the nice soldiers who have been placed at the tomb with expressed orders to allow no entry, would kindly violate their orders, break the official seals, and allow the woman to continue on with their ever so necessary slathering.

These verses virtually scream conspiracy. Because the woman would have had no hope of reaching the body of Jesus had the stone been in place. The woman were fully aware that the tomb was open, and that the body of Jesus was gone. Otherwise the trip to the tomb would have been useless. What their trip actually accomplished was to allow them to spread the story that the tomb was open and empty, and on the third day as promised, at the earliest possible time.

3) Not much later (within a little more than a month of his death), several of his disciples, collectively and individually, suffered complex hallucinations—we can call them uniform hallucinations. In the case of individual hallucinations, the uniform general impression was a vocation—“go and tell� and the content of the vocation was generally the same. In the case of collective hallucinations, the victims saw and heard the very same things.

Matthew 27:64 indicates the the Jewish authorities fully believed that the disciples of Jesus had a motive for moving the body of Jesus. The Jewish authorities, WHO WERE ACTUALLY PRESENT AT THE TIME TO JUDGE THE SITUATION, believed strongly enough in fact to go a graveyard on a high holy day to secure the tomb. And what they feared the disciples intended to do is exactly what occurred. The tomb proved to be empty, and the disciples spread the rumor that Jesus had risen from the dead.

This IS a perfectly plausible explanation for the origin of the rumor of the risen Jesus.

I scanned through this. My point was not that this was a "good" hypothesis, but it was the best based on common sense.

Your explanations are so liberal they are just short of allegories. Worse, they betray appalling ignorance of 1st c. Judaism.

(I have mentioned to others, I am fully willing to debate on one-on-one terms; if that interests you, please PM me)

[Divine Insight]

Question: Do you think this is a good/plausible explanation for Christianity's origins?

No, not at all.

To the contrary, you are attempting to include the Christian Gospels as "needing" to be explained in every claim they make. That's your mistake right there.

IMHO, the best explanation for the origins of Christianity is that they started as superstitious rumors about some events that may or may not have occurred. From there they grew to become more elaborate rumors over many years. And this is in perfect harmony with what we actually see in the time line of the writing of the Gospels.

Therefore you demand that all these rumors must be accounted for holds no merit. And therefore it is a straw man position.

This was C. S. Lewis' mistake. C. S. Lewis proclaim a false dichotomy as well. He proclaimed that either Jesus would need to be an absolute raving lunatic or he was the son of God. But that's a false dichotomy precisely because C. S. Lewis is only considering a Jesus character who actually said all the things attributed to him in the Gospels as if they were the "Gospel Truth".

That's the part you need to drop.

Once we realize that the Gospels are fabricated rumors that were constructed over many years there is no longer any reason to demand that ever word in the Gospels must be accounted for as if it is the "Gospel Truth".

To the contrary, once we recognize these writings are fabricated exaggerated rumors there's no longer any need to trust anything they have to say.

So here's my "Best Non-Divine Explanation for Christianity".

And this is radically different from yours.

1. There probably was some sort of wandering preacher named Jesus (or whatever)
2. He probably did reject orthodox Judaism as the Gospel rumors have him doing.
3. He probably did argue with the Jewish Chief Priests and publicly call them hypocrites as the Gospel rumors have him doing.
4. He probably was executed for apostasy in some horrible fashion.

From this event rumors started and were methodically built up over some decades after this event.

Your approach where you make out like every rumor within the Gospels must be taken to be true and explained, is simply unnecessary. The bulk of those rumors were no doubt made up and therefore no explanation for them is necessary.

In other words, you include the tomb being discovered empty as needing to be explained. I don't. I see no need to explain that to be anything more than a belated rumor. There's no good reason to believe that any actual tomb had ever even been discovered to be empty.

So the very simple explanation that all of these writings are nothing more than exaggerated rumors is sufficient.

There is simply no further need to explain them.

So the "BEST" non-divine explanation is that they are nothing more than exaggerated rumors. Period.

No further explanation is required and everything that needs to be explained has been explained.

So we're done. And there's nothing left unexplained.

They were never anything more than superstitious exaggerated rumors. Period.

That's all they ever were. Possibly even crafted by people who were indeed trying to create a believable religion. So motivation for the exaggerated rumors is explained as well.

Dismissing them as nothing more than exaggerated rumors works just fine.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 4 by liamconnor]

To make this clearer: I will say that the fact you reject this explanation leaves only ONE possibility--supernatural intervention. EITHER YOU ACCEPT THIS, OR THAT.

False, false false false.

Just because Danmark (or myself) reject your hypothesis that a non-disciple took the body DOES NOT MEAN that the ONLY other possibility is the supernatural.
As Danmark has repeatedly explained (or is it ToTN?, it's early morning and I forget which one is which), the gospels themselves point out that the last people known to have the body of Jesus...were his disciples. At no point is a non-disciple mentioned as having possession.

I reject fully the assertion "Because you reject this non-miraculous explanation, this leaves the supernatural as the only possibility". No, that is NOT how it works. Are you unintentionally quoting, in some round about way, Sherlock Holmes?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]

This was C. S. Lewis' mistake. C. S. Lewis proclaim a false dichotomy as well. He proclaimed that either Jesus would need to be an absolute raving lunatic or he was the son of God.

Just to correct you DI, Lewis proclaimed a tri-chotomy, a false one. Famously known as Lunatic, Liar or Lord.
Lewis of course either didn't think about or just shrugged off the fourth possible L - Legend.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 4 by liamconnor]

To make this clearer: I will say that the fact you reject this explanation leaves only ONE possibility--supernatural intervention. EITHER YOU ACCEPT THIS, OR THAT.

False, false false false.

Just because Danmark (or myself) reject your hypothesis that a non-disciple took the body DOES NOT MEAN that the ONLY other possibility is the supernatural.
As Danmark has repeatedly explained (or is it ToTN?, it's early morning and I forget which one is which), the gospels themselves point out that the last people known to have the body of Jesus...were his disciples. At no point is a non-disciple mentioned as having possession.

I reject fully the assertion "Because you reject this non-miraculous explanation, this leaves the supernatural as the only possibility". No, that is NOT how it works. Are you unintentionally quoting, in some round about way, Sherlock Holmes?

We can't even be sure that any body was ever missing in the first place. The whole "missing body" claim may be nothing more than superstitious rumors.

liamconnor is acting like there was definitely a missing body and we must account for it. But that's baloney from the get go. We have no reason to believe that there ever was a missing body in the first place. And even if there was there's nothing supernatural about a missing body.

Let's not forget that in these Gospel rumors it is also claimed that God spoke from a cloud. Are we going to have to account for that too like as if that actually happened just because the claim is made within these rumors?

How about the multitude of saints who were jostled from their graves due to an earthquake that supposedly occurred after Jesus gave up the ghost? And then these zombie saints went into the Holy City and showed themselves to the people there, except that city was fully of Jews and the Jews don't believe a word of these rumors.

If the Jews were satisfied that these Christian claims are nothing but rumors why should anyone else suspect otherwise? They were there at the time these things were claimed to have happened and they didn't believe any of it.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

This is different from my previous Threads. I give what I think the "best" non-divine explanation of the early Jesus movement will entail.

Best “natural� Hypothesis: (I have borrowed from Vermes, Sanders, and other non-Christian scholars).

1) Jesus’ body was taken by a non-disciple leaving the tomb empty: there is no historical data suggesting why. All explanations are purely speculative.

2) His tomb was discovered empty by women two days after his death (crucified and buried on Friday; unobserved on the Sabbath; found empty on Sunday morn) and verified by at least a couple of Jesus' closest disciples--Peter most certainly.

3) Not much later (within a little more than a month of his death), several of his disciples, collectively and individually, suffered complex hallucinations—we can call them uniform hallucinations. In the case of individual hallucinations, the uniform general impression was a vocation—“go and tell� and the content of the vocation was generally the same. In the case of collective hallucinations, the victims saw and heard the very same things.

Question: Do you think this is a good/plausible explanation for Christianity's origins?

1) Jesus’ body was taken by a non-disciple leaving the tomb empty: there is no historical data suggesting why. All explanations are purely speculative.

The entire story is "purely speculative."

Why would "non disciples" want the body of an executed criminal? Especially since the disciples of Jesus were already in legal possession of it. The disciples clearly had the means, motive, and opportunity to have relocated the body.

A. MEANS. Joseph, the rich man, was clearly a man of means. Only a man of means could have hoped to have been granted an audience with, and a favor from, the Roman governor. Along with Joseph we have an individual names Nicodemus, the eleven remaining apostles, and some several dozens of other followers of Jesus on hand to potentially be utilized in the undertaking. More then enough means to accomplish the feat. Once the body of Jesus had been procured from the Romans, it was then simply a matter of prepping the body for a journey, using the convenience of Joseph's tomb for privacy, and then taking the corpse elsewhere to effect it's actual final resting place, closing the door (the stone) behind them when they left. No great trick or slight of hand required. THE DISCIPLES HAD THE MEANS.

B. Motive.
Deut.21
[22] And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
[23] His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Crucifixion was the most lowly and ignominious death possible for a Jew. Jesus was beaten and hung up for death. A scandalous death for him, his family, and for his cause. This was precisely the intention the priests had in pressing the Roman governor for his crucifixion. It should have served to abruptly put an end to Jesus' movement. On the other hand, the claim that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead, if true, could only have been as a result of an act of God. Claiming that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead served to completely overturn the intention of the Jewish authorities and undo all that they had attempted. And it worked far better than they could possibly have anticipated, historically.

C. OPPORTUNITY. The disciples not only had the opportunity to relocate the body, THEY HAD THE BODY, given to them by Pilate to do with as they chose. The disciples of Jesus were in fact the last ones to be in certain possession of the body. THE DISCIPLES HAD THE OPPORTUNITY.

2) His tomb was discovered empty by women two days after his death (crucified and buried on Friday; unobserved on the Sabbath; found empty on Sunday morn) and verified by at least a couple of Jesus' closest disciples--Peter most certainly.

Mark 16:
[1] And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
[2] And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
[3] And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
[4] And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

So, at first light on Sunday morning out went the three Marys, intent on slarhering more ointment on a corpse already slathered in 100 pounds of ointment, knowing full well that they had absolutely NO chance of reaching the body, based on the forlorn, and all but unbelievable, hope that there just might be some nice strange men who just happened to be hanging out in a graveyard at night who would kindly agree to move the great stone for them.

Or perhaps they thought that the nice soldiers who have been placed at the tomb with expressed orders to allow no entry, would kindly violate their orders, break the official seals, and allow the woman to continue on with their ever so necessary slathering.

These verses virtually scream conspiracy. Because the woman would have had no hope of reaching the body of Jesus had the stone been in place. The woman were fully aware that the tomb was open, and that the body of Jesus was gone. Otherwise the trip to the tomb would have been useless. What their trip actually accomplished was to allow them to spread the story that the tomb was open and empty, and on the third day as promised, at the earliest possible time.

3) Not much later (within a little more than a month of his death), several of his disciples, collectively and individually, suffered complex hallucinations—we can call them uniform hallucinations. In the case of individual hallucinations, the uniform general impression was a vocation—“go and tell� and the content of the vocation was generally the same. In the case of collective hallucinations, the victims saw and heard the very same things.

Matthew 27:64 indicates the the Jewish authorities fully believed that the disciples of Jesus had a motive for moving the body of Jesus. The Jewish authorities, WHO WERE ACTUALLY PRESENT AT THE TIME TO JUDGE THE SITUATION, believed strongly enough in fact to go a graveyard on a high holy day to secure the tomb. And what they feared the disciples intended to do is exactly what occurred. The tomb proved to be empty, and the disciples spread the rumor that Jesus had risen from the dead.

This IS a perfectly plausible explanation for the origin of the rumor of the risen Jesus.

I scanned through this. My point was not that this was a "good" hypothesis, but it was the best based on common sense.

Your explanations are so liberal they are just short of allegories. Worse, they betray appalling ignorance of 1st c. Judaism.

(I have mentioned to others, I am fully willing to debate on one-on-one terms; if that interests you, please PM me)

Your explanations are so liberal they are just short of allegories.

My explanation indicates that the Jewish authorities took possession of a closed tomb which proved to be empty the next day because the disciples, who were already in possession of the body and had every legal right, moved the body elsewhere for burial. Your explanation for the empty tomb is that the corpse came back to life, left the tomb, and subsequently flew away. Your explanation is so liberal and unrealistic that it is essentially non functional. It is the least likely of all possibilities.

Worse, they betray appalling ignorance of 1st c. Judaism.

Please explain.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]

This was C. S. Lewis' mistake. C. S. Lewis proclaim a false dichotomy as well. He proclaimed that either Jesus would need to be an absolute raving lunatic or he was the son of God.

Just to correct you DI, Lewis proclaimed a tri-chotomy, a false one. Famously known as Lunatic, Liar or Lord.
Lewis of course either didn't think about or just shrugged off the fourth possible L - Legend.

Well, lunatic and liar can be lumped together as far as I'm concerned. My main point is that C. S. Lewis still refused to consider that the whole shebang could be nothing but unreliable rumors. Both lunatic and liar assume that everything attributed to Jesus in the Gospels where things that Jesus actually said.

So C. S. Lewis never really considered the "Gospels" to be anything other than the "Gospel Truth" at least in terms of what they claimed Jesus said.

Once we recognize that they are undependable rumors, there's no longer any need to view them as the "Gospel Truth".

Even if there was an actual historical "Jesus" who was the fodder for the gospel rumors that doesn't mean that everything he is quoted as having said in the Gospels he actually said in real life.

In short, even if Jesus was a real person, the "Jesus" portrayed in the Gospels is still potentially largely made up.

[Divine Insight]

My explanation indicates that the Jewish authorities took possession of a closed tomb which proved to be empty the next day because the disciples, who were already in possession of the body and had every legal right, moved the body elsewhere for burial. Your explanation for the empty tomb is that the corpse came back to life, left the tomb, and subsequently flew away. Your explanation is so liberal and unrealistic that it is essentially non functional. It is the least likely of all possibilities.

Is there really any need to "explain" Jewish authorities taking possession of an empty tomb?

Has this been recorded by Jewish Historians outside of the Christian Bible?

Do the Jews even concede that there really was an empty tomb mystery as the Christians claim?

If not, then why should this claim made only in the Gospels even need an explanation at all?

Who says it ever happened other than the authors of Gospel rumors?

Why should anyone need to explain the Gospel rumors?

The Gospel rumors claim that God spoke from a cloud proclaiming that Jesus is his son. Do we need to explain that too?

My explanation is simple. No God ever spoke from any clouds, it was all a made up superstitious fib.

The Gospel rumors claim that saints were jostled from their graves and got up and walk out to go into the Holy City to show themselves to the people there. Do we need to explain that too?

I don't think so. Just dismissing it as having never happened is more than sufficient.

[Divine Insight]

My explanation indicates that the Jewish authorities took possession of a closed tomb which proved to be empty the next day because the disciples, who were already in possession of the body and had every legal right, moved the body elsewhere for burial. Your explanation for the empty tomb is that the corpse came back to life, left the tomb, and subsequently flew away. Your explanation is so liberal and unrealistic that it is essentially non functional. It is the least likely of all possibilities.

By the way, why should the Jewish Authorities give a hoot about a bunch of rebel apostates who might claim that Jesus rose from the dead?

If they made that claim wouldn't they be asked to back up the claim by producing this raised Jesus?

What are they going to say, "Oh we can't do that because he flew off to heaven".

Yeah right.

There is no way that the Jewish Authorities would have needed to worry about these apostates claiming that their leader rose from the dead if they can't produce this risen leader.

Claiming that he then flew off to heaven would have been laughed at.

The very idea that the Jewish Authorities would have been worried about such rumors of a risen Jesus makes no sense in the real world. They would have gladly waited for someone to produce this risen Jesus. And if that couldn't be done it would be nothing but a laughing stock anyway.

So why would the Jewish Authorities have worried about such nonsense?