Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Zzyzx
Site Supporter
Posts: 25089
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: Bible Belt USA
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #161

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 159 by JehovahsWitness]
JehovahsWitness wrote: Note: The questions seems to be based on the supposition of accepting the content of the bible and I am answering in like without the need to present scientific, verifiable proof of that content or the need for readers to believe in that supposition in order to participate. If the point of debate is actually not the character and position of "Satan" as presented in scripture but rather a request for proof of his existence I will stand corrected.
You're over-complicating this.

There's no mention of having to PROVE anything in the OP... so relax.
We are speculating.
Zzyzx wrote: .
Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?
JehovahsWitness wrote:Yes, the bible* says there are "many gods" and does indeed present satan as a rival god and {quote} "god of this world".
I looked but I didn't find where it says that the "god of this world" or "of this age".. or the "prince" is actually "Satan".

Most Christians so far don't AGREE that Satan is a god... so, it's great to hear a dissenting view.
JehovahsWitness wrote:* I refer to the bible not to say people must believe it to be true but as a referrence to what is often viewed as the chief religious source of the the religion in question (Christianity). I personally believe the information therein to be accurate and true.
It's perfectly fine for you to cite the Bible as a reference. The only problem is when we try to use the Bible as PROOF for what the Bible says. That's about as useless... well, as a very useless thing.

I'd LOVE to have a discussion with you about WHY you believe the information therein to be accurate and true, though.

You didn't mention WHY.
Do you have a reason that could make sense to an outsider to your faith?

:)

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #162

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Blastcat wrote:You're over-complicating this. There's no mention of having to PROVE anything in the OP... so relax. We are speculating.
ok; just clarifying .
Blastcat wrote: It's perfectly fine for you to cite the Bible as a reference.
Ok
Blastcat wrote:I looked but I didn't find where it says that the "god of this world" or "of this age".. or the "prince" is actually "Satan".
No I deduced that, ie I analysed what the bible said, the context of the terms and came to the personal conclusion it was referring to Satan having read a number of biblical commentaries on the subject. They are not the actual words used in the text. PLEASE NOTE: I am expressing my opinion.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #163

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 162 by JehovahsWitness]



Blastcat wrote:I looked but I didn't find where it says that the "god of this world" or "of this age".. or the "prince" is actually "Satan".
JehovahsWitness wrote:No I deduced that, ie I analysed what the bible said, the context of the terms and came to the personal conclusion it was referring to Satan having read a number of biblical commentaries on the subject. They are not the actual words used in the text. PLEASE NOTE: I am expressing my opinion.
Ok, This is very good !

It might seem artificial at first, but when we are expressing an opinion in a debate, is REALLY IMPORTANT to spell it out so that the readers know where we're coming from.

You are most certainly entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else.

But that's the problem with most discussions about religious people about their beliefs. It's all about opinions, conjecture, inference, and so on. BUT PEOPLE TAKE all of that as... somehow also TRUE.

And that's where the problems begin.

I think that religious people just go TOO far with their dreams.
The Bible is NOTHING if it's not open to interpretation.

It's just that we should never mistake our interpretations ( and yes, atheists can and do interpret the Bible ) for something we know to be REAL.

God might be "true" in the sense of a metaphor is true... but not real in the sense of how NATURE is real. There's more reality in a small rock than in the God of the Bible.

BY FAR.

( in my humble opinion )

:)
Last edited by Blastcat on Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #164

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 163 by Blastcat]

Well it is my opinion (one that harmonizes with the bible) that God is the creator of the universe (and is real in every sense of the word), and that Satan (a rival "god") has challenged God's sovereignty (not the actual words in the bible, a conclusion based on my analysis of the subject). The vast majority of human suffering is* the result of Satan being the "god of this world" and the chief motor for everything that happens in this system of thing (the one that pulls the strings as it were to world politics, false religion and big business). I am here expressing by beliefs.


*The above is my opinion.



Image
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #165

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 164 by JehovahsWitness]

POINTS FOR CLARITY !!
JehovahsWitness wrote:Well it is my opinion (one that harmonizes with the bible)
Well, yeah. I accept that.
You're right on the money today!

Most opinions about the Bible "harmonize" with the Bible to some extent. In fact, Christians disagree about what the Bible means because they have harmonized the Bible in a different way than other Christians.

That's what opinions about the Bible DO.
They relate to the Bible in some way.

Even my atheist opinions about the Bible "harmonize" with the Bible in some way. It's just that it's really not going to be the same way as Christians, or EVEN as other atheists. We all have our different takes on the book, you see.

That fact makes it hard for me to believe that there can be only ONE way to interpret the Bible, as all too many Christian debaters insist.
JehovahsWitness wrote:that God is the creator of the universe and that Satan (a rival "god") has challenged God's sovereignty (not the actual words in the bible, a conclusion based on my analysis of the subject).
OK !!
Fair enough, you believe that.

But as an atheist with the chance to debate Christians, I have to ask to what degree do you take these stories as REAL events with REAL "beings"?

For example, I take them about as "real" as any other religious myth, and for that matter just about as "real" as fairy tales. I don't take fairy tale characters to be real as a small rock, for example. I use the same reasoning for the Bible. What about you?

Do you think that the God of the Bible is as "real" as a small rock?
I suspect that you do... if so, for what reason?

You stated above it's due to your analysis of the texts. But you have to understand what I mean about that rock being more "real" than "God". I can actually go out and get some PROOF that a small rock exists. It's tangible proof... nobody in his right mind would question that a small rock exists because of all of that proof. So, I don't question the existence of rocks, and I hope you don't either. If you do, I would suggest that you go to a beach somewhere and take a look.

So, it's easy to get evidence that small rocks exist. AND then, we can write all kinds of things about rocks in books. Those books are NICE, and explain a LOT about rocks, but if all we had were the books, and we could NOT find any rocks anywhere on Earth or anywhere else ( ok, a weird thought experiment, let's just pretend ) the books ALONE wouldn't be evidence for rocks.

They would be DESCRIPTIONS maybe, they might be stories about rocks, but the texts, no matter how carefully analyzed, would just not be evidence that rocks actually exist. Now, if you switch from rocks to God... maybe you can see what I'm getting at. The Bible ALONE isn't evidence for God.

I hope you understand the pretty clunky analogy. It's not one of my best.
JehovahsWitness wrote:The vast majority of human suffering is* the result of Satan being the "god of this world" and the chief motor for everything that happens in this system of thing. I am here expressing by beliefs.


*The above is my opinion.
Right.. it's your beliefs.
Thanks for the clarity.

In these forums, we debate people in order to establish if their religious beliefs are JUSTIFIED or not, if they can make sense. That's what apologetics means. Making a reasoned argument to defend the faith.

If the arguments or reasons don't make SENSE, the apologetic FAILS.
A lot of our debate opponents forget that part.

They might have a lot of faith, they might KEEP to their faith, but they can't say that they have good REASONS for their faith if their reasons for it FAIL.

So, in my little scenario, we have two books. One is about rocks, and the other is about God.

Now... where is the evidence for any rock? IN the book?

No.

Rocks are found in NATURE. We are going to get evidence for the existence of rocks in nature.

Where is GOD to be found?
Where do we get evidence for THAT?

:)

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #166

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Blastcat wrote: Do you think that the God of the Bible is as "real" as a small rock?
In what sense is a small rock "real" what do you mean by "real"? That it exists, yes I believe God exists as much as a "small rock" exists. Do you mean is He physical, can I touch or see God, no, God is not physical He is a spirit, with a spirit body, humans cannot see or feel God (although they can feel his holy spirit - active force).

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #167

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 166 by JehovahsWitness]




ROCK WINNING REALITY CONTEST WITH GOD!!!


Read about Blastcat's shocking discovery that:

Rock = 3
God = 2
Blastcat wrote: Do you think that the God of the Bible is as "real" as a small rock?
JehovahsWitness wrote:In what sense is a small rock "real" what do you mean by "real"? That it exists, yes I believe God exists as much as a "small rock" exists. Do you mean is He physical, can I touch or see God, no,
Yeah, I'm just using the normal definition of the word "real":

"Actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed: Julius Caesar was a real person her many illnesses, real and imaginary"

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... glish/real

I can imagine the "spirit" of a rock, feel stuff about that idea, AND I can hold it in my hand. By Oxford's definition, I can IMAGINE a rock, I can feel things about the experience of the rock, and the rock is also occurring in fact.

That's three ways the rock is "real" to me.

We can imagine the "spirit" you call "God" feel stuff about the idea...and.... what else?

In my estimation:

I only see two ways that God is real.
Three to two..

Rock more real than God.
JehovahsWitness wrote:God is not physical He is a spirit, with a spirit body, humans cannot see or feel God (although they can feel his holy spirit - active force).
Ok, here is the thing about not being able to see or feel things... HOW DO WE KNOW they exist? And you made a bit of a mistake by saying that you can't FEEL God and then you can FEEL this spirit you call God. ( his holy spirit - active force ). In my mind, you can feel it or you can't feel it, but you can't have it BOTH WAYS.

Maybe you mean to say that you feel the "spirit of the spirit" .. but... I'll let you explain it yourself.

:)

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #168

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Blastcat wrote: Ok, here is the thing about not being able to see or feel things... HOW DO WE KNOW they exist?
Well, in my opinion, if you cannot see or feel something you are left with using your intelligent assessment of what is around to come to a reasonable conclusion. My analysis of the world around me (which I can see) is what I have used to come to conclusions about what I believe cannot be seen.
Blastcat wrote: And you made a bit of a mistake by saying that you can't FEEL God and then you can FEEL this spirit you call God. ( his holy spirit - active force ). In my mind, you can feel it or you can't feel it, but you can't have it BOTH WAYS.
I said humans cannot see God or feel God himself (his body) the person.

I said humans can feel (the effects) of his holy spirit (not the same thing as God)

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #169

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 166 by JehovahsWitness]
That it exists, yes I believe God exists as much as a "small rock" exists. Do you mean is He physical, can I touch or see God, no, God is not physical He is a spirit,
Then JW I have to point out that this contradicts what you said earlier. In post 164 you said
that God is the creator of the universe (and is real in every sense of the word
But now God isn't real in the same way that a rock is real? In the same sense that a rock is real?
God is real in some sense of 'real' that we quite simply (we being I, Blastcat and everyone else) can verify?
Are we to just take your word for it that God is 'real'? No? Are we then to just take the word of the various authors of the various books of the Bible? That's even worse. Those fellas are long since dead. At least you're here, still alive and able to talk to us. There's ambiguity as to what those fellas mean in their books and no real way to solve it. At least if I'm confused as to what you mean, I can ask you.
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

User avatar
catnip
Guru
Posts: 1007
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:40 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Post #170

Post by catnip »

Blastcat wrote: [Replying to post 134 by catnip]
Blastcat wrote: So, if I am looking at an icy cold beer that would be fun for me to drink on a hot summer day.

1. Is that a sin or not?
2. Is that in line with FAITH or not?
3. Would you recommend it or not?

I CANNOT tell by your conflicting comments.

:)
catnip wrote:1) It is not a sin. It does not cause any harm to anyone or to yourself to indulge in a cold beer on a hot day. It is the only time I like beer, myself.
So, how do you reconsile that with your statement that "The whole objective of faith is to rise above the temptations of the personality, the attribution of the needs of the body "

Should I not rise above the temptation or my personal body needs, INSTEAD of having a beer? Water IS better than beer for my body, after all.
Mostly, we Christians have no particular diet unless we are practicing self-denial and that can be specific and assigned to whatever we choose, such as not eating meat.

The body isn't a bad thing. It just is. It is a benign thing and can be used either for good or ill. In scripture it is the Temple of God or the pot created by the potter. In either case, it is a container and it is corruptible (it rots without preservation after death)--it isn't the essential me.

I hear they think that beer may offset breast cancer . . . well, seriously, what does a beer or two or three do that is harmful to us? It is only a danger when overindulged in.
catnip wrote:2) Alcohol was often drunk in ancient cultures because the water made people sick, thus the watering down of the wine and even children drank it.
Yup.... not my case. I can choose tap water if I want to. Heck, I can drink safely out of my toilet bowl for that matter. It's safe. ( and NO, I haven't done that yet )
I was just pointing out the historical reason it is not only not forbidden, it is part of our celebration of the Holy Eucharist.
catnip wrote:This despite what the fundamentalist claim against alcohol. I think I have read that the ancient Egyptians drank a lot of beer.
Me too... so, how does that answer my question?
You appear to have a very Fundamentalist view of Christianity. JLB and I both come from older traditions (Churches). Having a beer or a glass of wine is thought to be quite normal. Historically, the first Baptists were recruiting from among the most poor, the meaner levels of society and I think battling alcoholism and teaching a "sober" life was instrumental to them. It isn't entirely bad, it just isn't the view held by the majority of Christians in this world.
catnip wrote:I am rather against the whole humorless, stiff-necked, holier than thou image that some apply to religion. Ick. lol And believe it or not--that IS a sin! Pride.
I don't have any opinion on what's holier, beer or no beer. I don't consider ANYTHING sinful, being an atheist. But I'm still confused why you would say that faith is rising ABOVE temptation ... and it's some kind of SIN to as you put it to indulge in "the attribution of the needs of the body "
It is knowing why we do the things we do and eliminating the actions that cause ourselves or others harm. Drinking a beer or two or three harms no one.
I don't know what that phrase means, exactly... sounds like giving in to body needs is a no-no for some reason. Indulging in fun be bad. Then, you say that fun is good. I'm still confused.
It just generally comes down to self-control and not using the body as an excuse. Consider gluttony--going to excess on creature comforts--that is a sin because it will deprive others of what they need. "All things in moderation."

We need not be comfortless or self-deprecating. We can take things so far that they become sin in themselves. As I said, being "holier that thou" can be a sin in itself. And yet trying to lead a holy life is a good thing. As Jesus pointed out for those who are fasting to not go around with a dour face, looking like and announcing we are fasting, but to not show that we are fasting and make a big deal of it. No, I can't remember the exact quote! lol
But I'm really happy that you can enjoy an icy cold beer once in a while... especially after a hard job well done on a hot day...nothing better.

Are you with me ?

:)
Sure! And I enjoy an icy beer! Cheers!

Post Reply