Why did God make pain so painful?

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OnceConvinced
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Why did God make pain so painful?

Post #1

Post by OnceConvinced »

As a Christian I believed that God created us to be able to feel physical pain as a protective mechanism. So when we say touched a hot element or flame, that pain forced us to withdraw our hand. This was a way to protect us against the damage that flames or hot elements would do to our body if we continued to handle them.

If you are a theist who believes the above like I did, then this thread is definitely for you and I'd really like to hear your opinions on this. If not, then this debate is not aimed at you. Of course anyone, even non-theists are welcome to tune in with their view on this topic. Just please do not try to argue that the above view is a false one. In this thread we are assuming that it is true... ie that God created pain as a protective mechanism for us. (and that God is real!)

Moving on to what I want to talk about...

My issue is with the intensity of the pain we experience in the above scenario... or similar ones. This is not just a slight deterrent to prevent you from touching something dangerous. This is a extremely intense pain we are talking about. Horrible pain inflicted upon us when we touch say a flame. What's worse is that even just touching it, we can be in real pain for some time after. Even just one touch can result in damage to our skin, even if it's minor and temporary.

Why is the pain so intense? Why does it need to be that horrible just to deter us from touching say a flame ever again? Couldn't the pain it cause be a little less sadistic?

Even farmers know that to keep their livestock fenced in that you only turn up the electricity so high on your electric fences. Just enough to give the animals a jolt so that it will deter them from ever touching the fence again. They know there is no need to turn the electricity up to a ridiculously high level so that the animal suffers more that what's necessary. Yet God seems to have turned the electricity right up for us humans.

So why does God turn up that pain to such a high level?

Why does God not provide a different defense mechanism that isn't so cruel?

A question that kind of encompasses these questions... Why did God make pain so painful?

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


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Re: Why did God make pain so painful?

Post #11

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 10 by Talishi]
Talishi wrote:Big bees who damaged their own food supply died out, and left the little bees all the food.
That creates another big problem for evolution.
Why do bees need to depend on flowers for their food?
Why couldn't they just go eat wood like the termites?
Why wouldn't the little bees breathe fire like their extinct elephant sized siblings?

Why? Why? Why?
That seems to be the second biggest problem for evolution.

It would seem that blind chance did some good matching up.
Or would that be wisdom?
Logic and common sense dictates the later.
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. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: Why did God make pain so painful?

Post #12

Post by Talishi »

theStudent wrote: Why do bees need to depend on flowers for their food?
Why couldn't they just go eat wood like the termites?
It's all about where you grow up. Big field of flowers with no trees there's no food for termites, but there's food for bees.
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Re: Why did God make pain so painful?

Post #13

Post by OnceConvinced »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 8 by OnceConvinced]

So let's make the sun an iceburg, and ice a fireball.
Would they do their job?
No, because that would be silly. Simply change the amount of pain that a human would endure if coming into contact with it.
theStudent wrote: I say wisdom, not blind chance, is the logical, and reasonable answer for why things are the way they are.
Is excruciating pain required to help humans gain wisdom and common sense?

theStudent wrote: The reason a bee can land on a flower without damaging the flower is because it was designed by a wise creator.
Or from an evolutionary perspective, the bee can land on a flower without damaging it because it can. It it could not do so it would not land on flowers. Or there would be no flowers due to the damage caused by bees.

theStudent wrote: Blind chance would probably have produced an elephant sized bee, with the tongue of a dragon.
Nope. There is no blind chance involved. A bee can land on a flower without damaging it. An elephant can't. It's just a basic reality.

You are looking at evolution all wrong. What we have is an inevitable outcome, not blind chance. If the system worked in a different way we would have completely different outcomes. If we had a completely different system, maybe you might have elephant sized bees with tongues of dragons. But we don't. We have what we have because it's the only way it could ever have been.

However if a God was involved, he could design the system any way he wanted to. He could have created elephant sized bees with dragon tongues if he so wished. He could have even made flowers that support the weight of them.

He could also make fire or ice burns a lot less painful for humans.
theStudent wrote: Goodbye flower.
What has this analogy got to do with pain and the varying degrees of pain?

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

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Re: Why did God make pain so painful?

Post #14

Post by OnceConvinced »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 10 by Talishi]
Talishi wrote:Big bees who damaged their own food supply died out, and left the little bees all the food.
That creates another big problem for evolution.
Why do bees need to depend on flowers for their food?
There is no problem for evolution here. Once again you look at it from a creationists perspective. You look at the end product and then work your way backwards.

Bees would either cease to exist or find some other food source.

What we have is the only possible outcome we could have as a result of the way the planet is. Flowers grew and creatures evolved (bees) that fed off flowers. It worked even better because it was of mutual benefit to both. Thus both thrived.
theStudent wrote: Why couldn't they just go eat wood like the termites?
Because termites evolved to eat wood and bees didn't.

This is not difficult to get ones head around. One species took path a, another took path b. There is no rule that states they have to take the same path. There is no rule that says something has to guide them down certain paths.

Evolution happens the way it happens. It doesn't require guidance. It doesn't have an ultimate goal.
theStudent wrote: Why wouldn't the little bees breathe fire like their extinct elephant sized siblings?
Because they don't. Why should they?
theStudent wrote: Why? Why? Why?
That seems to be the second biggest problem for evolution.
No, it seems to only be a problem for creationists, who often don't understand basic evolution. Try stepping outside of the creationist mindset and you'll see just how simple it becomes.
theStudent wrote:
It would seem that blind chance did some good matching up.
There is no blind chance in evolution, only inevitable outcomes.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

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Post #15

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 9:
theStudent wrote: I say wisdom, not blind chance, is the logical, and reasonable answer for why things are the way they are.
A statement like that indicates your "wisdom" ain't.
theStudent wrote: The reason a bee can land on a flower without damaging the flower is because it was designed by a wise creator.
Or, the weight or "footprint" of the bee is insufficient to damage the flower. Flowers are tough'ner ya might think. Try killing back a patch of day lily without either cussin', or using nuclear technology.
theStudent wrote: Blind chance would probably have produced an elephant sized bee, with the tongue of a dragon.

Goodbye flower.
Not unlike blind ignorance producin' it some goofy notions in some folks.

Bees, being insects, can't possibly grow to the size of an elephant in the current atmosphere, as they would then lack sufficient ability to oxygenate their interior elements, being tracheal breathers (not to be confused with mouth breathers :wave: ). The energy required to do so'd mean they'd hafta land on 'em whale sized flowers, and we know flowers can't grow to the size of whales 'cause then they'd be so big, all the trees'd hafta reach up to like the moon, and who wants to live in a world where the moon keeps sneezing on earth 'cause it is, them dang trees keep a-ticklin' its nose?

Bees also don't have dragon tongues, 'cause it is they ain't dragons. They're pretty good at staying to being bees, and less good at providing some sorta goofy argument as to why we should accept your awe-struckedness as anything other'n an example of how struck your awe got.
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Post #16

Post by JLB32168 »

So the argument seems to be, “Pain for X-things is unusually intense. A good god wouldn’t make this the case; therefore, a good god [or any god for that matter] doesn’t exist.� I’ve never seen the value of that argument. It only confirms the atheist and the theist in their opinion.

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Post #17

Post by PghPanther »

Tsk tsk tsk there Once Convinced........

Don't you know why pain is so awful?

See you weren't paying attention when you were a Christian........if pain didn't feel this bad while we lived on Earth .......then....

NO ONE WOULD BE AFRAID OF THE PAIN OF HELL FIRE OF COURSE!!!!

hehe.....that's the obvious reason why God made pain and especially of the burn type so miserable to keep you fearing him and afraid of hell...........

Remember friend...........its turn or burn!!!............Ahhhh ahahhahah!

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Post #18

Post by OnceConvinced »

JLB32168 wrote: So the argument seems to be, “Pain for X-things is unusually intense. A good god wouldn’t make this the case; therefore, a good god [or any god for that matter] doesn’t exist.�
Nope, that does not bring me to a conclusion that god doesn't exist. It brings me to the conclusion that if God exists, then he is a cruel one who employed malevolent design.
JLB32168 wrote: I’ve never seen the value of that argument. It only confirms the atheist and the theist in their opinion.
It's not an argument I made and I doubt any self respecting atheist would make it.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

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Post #19

Post by OnceConvinced »

PghPanther wrote: Tsk tsk tsk there Once Convinced........

Don't you know why pain is so awful?

See you weren't paying attention when you were a Christian........if pain didn't feel this bad while we lived on Earth .......then....

NO ONE WOULD BE AFRAID OF THE PAIN OF HELL FIRE OF COURSE!!!!

hehe.....that's the obvious reason why God made pain and especially of the burn type so miserable to keep you fearing him and afraid of hell...........
Actually, knowing the god of the bible that could very well be the case!

So far you have come up with the most convincing answer.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

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Re: Why did God make pain so painful?

Post #20

Post by KingandPriest »

OnceConvinced wrote:
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 8 by OnceConvinced]

So let's make the sun an iceburg, and ice a fireball.
Would they do their job?
No, because that would be silly. Simply change the amount of pain that a human would endure if coming into contact with it.
theStudent wrote: I say wisdom, not blind chance, is the logical, and reasonable answer for why things are the way they are.
Is excruciating pain required to help humans gain wisdom and common sense?

theStudent wrote: The reason a bee can land on a flower without damaging the flower is because it was designed by a wise creator.
Or from an evolutionary perspective, the bee can land on a flower without damaging it because it can. It it could not do so it would not land on flowers. Or there would be no flowers due to the damage caused by bees.

theStudent wrote: Blind chance would probably have produced an elephant sized bee, with the tongue of a dragon.
Nope. There is no blind chance involved. A bee can land on a flower without damaging it. An elephant can't. It's just a basic reality.

You are looking at evolution all wrong. What we have is an inevitable outcome, not blind chance. If the system worked in a different way we would have completely different outcomes. If we had a completely different system, maybe you might have elephant sized bees with tongues of dragons. But we don't. We have what we have because it's the only way it could ever have been.

However if a God was involved, he could design the system any way he wanted to. He could have created elephant sized bees with dragon tongues if he so wished. He could have even made flowers that support the weight of them.

He could also make fire or ice burns a lot less painful for humans.
theStudent wrote: Goodbye flower.
What has this analogy got to do with pain and the varying degrees of pain?
Are nonsensical questions more likely to yield sensible or nonsensical answers.

Why is pain so painful? Why is hot so hot? Couldn't a good God make hot, just a little less hot, so I wouldn't call it hot anymore?

The question you pose does not make sense. I guess in your mind uniformity is supreme. Variation and diversity should not exist. There are degrees to everything in creation. Some flowers are more "blue" than others. The degree of "blueness" has benefits and consequences. Degree's of pain help us to remember certain events more than others. The pain of a flame is more painful to remind us of the severity of danger which can be associated with a flame. Which is more dangerous, a flame which causes a burn, or a sheet of paper which causes a papercut. The degree of pain, helps us indentify and categorize dangers.

Why does a person have more fear if someone is holding a gun to their head, as opposed to a pillow fight. The gun can cause a greater degree of damage.

Variation and diversity are a blessing. Even consequences of actions have variations and diversity. According to your logic there should be no diversity or variation. This is the same type of logic employed by the Nazi propaganda.

Variation and diversity is a wonderful part of creation.

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