Animal Sacrifice: Why turn a blind eye?

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jgh7

Animal Sacrifice: Why turn a blind eye?

Post #1

Post by jgh7 »

There are detailed rules in the Old Testament for conducting animal sacrifice both as a means of praise to God and as a means of seeking forgiveness/atonement for sins.

I view animal sacrifice as barbaric nonsensical cruelty to animals. The notion that forgiveness or worship of God are linked to killing an animal is disturbing.

How do Christians reconcile the rules of animal sacrifice in the OT? They eventually were phased out, but they certainly existed for a long time when the OT was in effect (thousands of years perhaps).

To me, this is enough to completely dismiss Christianity from a religious standpoint. I will not partake in a religion whose God once condoned animal sacrifice. I mean, my common sense tells me it's disturbing to the point that it would be silly to partake in such a religion.

Questions:

Do you view animal sacrifice as barbaric/cruel/disturbing?
If yes, then doesn't this mean that the bible God is barbaric/cruel/disturbing since He approved of it and had detailed rules for it written in the OT?

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Post #71

Post by Zzyzx »

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FinalEnigma wrote: I don't think the fact that the poor women is two blocks down the road has any bearing on the relevance of my argument.
If God commands that you help your fellow man, I do not think that building walls around yourself so that you cannot hear their pleas abrogates your duty to help them.
The defensive posts appear to be an example of compartmentalized thinking I encounter frequently when debating Apologists – including 'us vs. them' attitudes 'It is terrible if they do it to us but is noble if we do it to them' – with 'them' being whoever disagrees with their worship preferences and practices.

'It is terrible if they kill babies but it is noble if we (or our God) kill entire civilizations, babies included – because they worshiped wrong – and might do so again if we allow any babies to live'.

Or, if the hungry woman is outside the temple where animals are being burned to a crisp, she doesn't count. It is small wonder that such thinking leads to inequities and atrocities.

It illuminating that most Jews do not take literally many / most parts of the Torah while defenders of their spawn religion, Christianity, often fanatically defend the stories.
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Post #72

Post by Zzyzx »

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bluethread wrote: The poor woman is provided for.
By whom? How? Is this to say that there were no hungry people when sacrificial animals were wasted? How can that be known? Or is it just speculation?
bluethread wrote: I suppose your mother packed up the leftovers and shipped them off to China every day, right?
Perhaps in the mind of some Apologists failing to ship food scraps to a foreign country is equal to deliberately burning an entire animal carcass rather than using it to feed the hungry.

That is not surprising from those who have difficulty distinguishing between pet ownership and slave ownership – all 'in the name of God' of course.
bluethread wrote: You are aware that the money spent maintaining all of those memorials in DC could also be given to the poor? Come on, this is such a hackneyed argument.
Okay. Let's start on the local scale by converting palaces of worship to soup kitchens and housing for the homeless (and perhaps selling off the most ostentatious of them to the 'elite' to use as personal ostentatious residences / palaces – and use the money to house and feed those in need) . If there is still need I do not oppose converting some government edifices to the same purpose.

I also would not oppose a moratorium on building grandiose government structures and monuments – until poverty and economic inequality are successfully addressed.
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Post #73

Post by FinalEnigma »

bluethread wrote:
FinalEnigma wrote:
bluethread wrote:
FinalEnigma wrote:
I imagine a scenario . . .
This is a red herring. The burnt offering is a Temple sacrifice, there would be no poor women wandering around as it was being sacrificed. Also, as I stated before, there are plenty of commandments related to provision for the poor.

If sacrificing and burning to ash a livestock animal literally in front of this poor woman who is begging to eat the food is the wrong decision, then why would it be the correct decision if the woman is begging for food out in the market instead of in the temple?

I don't think the fact that the poor women is two blocks down the road has any bearing on the relevance of my argument.
If God commands that you help your fellow man, I do not think that building walls around yourself so that you cannot hear their pleas abrogates your duty to help them.
I suppose your mother packed up the leftovers and shipped them off to China every day, right?
Well, I doubt the leftovers would have still been edible once they arrived in China, and we almost always ate our leftovers ourselves the next day anyway. But we weren't allowed to waste food.

...but what relevance does my mother's food handling or charity practices have on determining how we ought to follow God's commandments?
You are aware that the money spent maintaining all of those memorials in DC could also be given to the poor?
What's the relevance? what is this supposed to tell us about whether or not we should feed the poor or burn animal sacrifices to useless ash?
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Post #74

Post by bluethread »

Zzyzx wrote: .
bluethread wrote: The poor woman is provided for.
By whom? How? Is this to say that there were no hungry people when sacrificial animals were wasted? How can that be known? Or is it just speculation?
One of the tithes is for the poor and there is a commandment that if one is in need they are to be provided for.
bluethread wrote: I suppose your mother packed up the leftovers and shipped them off to China every day, right?
Perhaps in the mind of some Apologists failing to ship food scraps to a foreign country is equal to deliberately burning an entire animal carcass rather than using it
That is not surprising from those who have difficulty distinguishing between pet ownership and slave ownership – all 'in the name of God' of course.


If that is what I was doing, you might have a point. I will address it below, but for now let me say I have no difficulty distinguishing between pet ownership and slave ownership. On that other thread I am checking the consistency of how others do so.
[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?to feed the hungry. p=827071#827071]bluethread[/url] wrote: You are aware that the money spent maintaining all of those memorials in DC could also be given to the poor? Come on, this is such a hackneyed argument.
Okay. Let's start on the local scale by converting palaces of worship to soup kitchens and housing for the homeless (and perhaps selling off the most ostentatious of them to the 'elite' to use as personal ostentatious residences / palaces – and use the money to house and feed those in need) . If there is still need I do not oppose converting some government edifices to the same purpose.

I also would not oppose a moratorium on building grandiose government structures and monuments – until poverty and economic inequality are successfully addressed.
Fine with me. Someone is already living where we do our Torah study. I must point out though that if that were done there would be no government buildings, because poverty is a relative thing. Also, a good many of those buildings are there, because supposedly they are necessary to make sure that the poor are taken care of. Yet, the left still insists that poor children and women are going hungry. They say it is because we do not have enough government. Now, you say that we need less government. Well, don't that just beat all. By the way, why is it that everyone always points to a poor woman and not a poor man. Are women unable to take care of themselves? That sounds kind of sexist to me. ;)

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Post #75

Post by Zzyzx »

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bluethread wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: Okay. Let's start on the local scale by converting palaces of worship to soup kitchens and housing for the homeless (and perhaps selling off the most ostentatious of them to the 'elite' to use as personal ostentatious residences / palaces – and use the money to house and feed those in need) . If there is still need I do not oppose converting some government edifices to the same purpose.

I also would not oppose a moratorium on building grandiose government structures and monuments – until poverty and economic inequality are successfully addressed.
Fine with me. Someone is already living where we do our Torah study.
Good start. Only one person? Is the space sufficient for many to sleep?
bluethread wrote: I must point out though that if that were done there would be no government buildings, because poverty is a relative thing. Also, a good many of those buildings are there, because supposedly they are necessary to make sure that the poor are taken care of.
Do you really think that readers accept that a 'good number' of government buildings are devoted to care for the poor?

Let's consider buildings that are home to various agencies and let's use some discernment if they are involved in feeding the hungry or housing the homeless. Here is a list of federal agencies that begin with 'A'. Of the forty listed. What percentage (a 'good number') are actually involved in feeding / housing?
A-Z Index of U.S. Government Departments and Agencies https://www.usa.gov/federal-agencies/a

1. AbilityOne Commission
2. Access Board
3. Administration for Children and Families (ACF)
4. Administration for Community Living
5. Administration for Native Americans
6. Administration on Aging (AoA)
7. Administration on Developmental Disabilities
8. Administrative Conference of the United States
9. Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts
10. Advisory Council on Historic Preservation
11. African Development Foundation
12. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ)
13. Agency for International Development (USAID)
14. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
15. Agricultural Marketing Service
16. Agricultural Research Service
17. Agriculture Department (USDA)
18. Air Force
19. Air Force Reserve
20. Alabama
21. Alaska
22. Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau
23. Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives Bureau
24. AmeriCorps
25. American Battle Monuments Commission
26. American Samoa
27. Amtrak (AMTRAK)
28. Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
29. Antitrust Division
30. Architect of the Capitol
31. Archives (National Archives and Records Administration) (NARA)
32. Arctic Research Commission
33. Arizona
34. Arkansas
35. Armed Forces Retirement Home
36. Arms Control and International Security
37. Army
38. Army Corps of Engineers
39. Arthritis and Musculoskeletal Interagency Coordinating Committee
Even more to the point:
Government estimates suggest there may be 77,000 empty or underutilized buildings across the country. Taxpayers own them, and even vacant, they’re expensive. The Office of Management and Budget says these buildings could be costing taxpayers $1.7 billion a year. …
http://hotair.com/archives/2014/03/13/t ... -billions/
That is an average of 1500 buildings in each state – vacant or underutilized
bluethread wrote: Yet, the left still insists that poor children and women are going hungry.
Yes, of course, it is “the left� that insists that people go hungry. Anyone with even rudimentary ability with computers can use a search engine and the term 'hunger in America' to learn that it is NOT 'the left' that recognizes the problem. Here is just the first page of a Google search
Hunger in America | Feeding America®
www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/
1 in 7 Americans struggles to get enough to eat. Discover how hunger exists in every community & learn more about solutions to hunger in America.

Hunger Facts & Poverty Statistics | Feeding America®
www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-americ ... d-poverty-...
In 2015: 42.2 million Americans lived in food insecure households, including 29.1 million adults and 13.1 million children. 13 percent of households (15.8 million households) were food insecure. 5 percent of households (6.3 million households) experienced very low food security.

Hunger in America: 2016 United States Hunger and Poverty Facts ...
www.worldhunger.org/hunger-in-america-2 ... poverty-fa...
Oct 9, 2016 - Hunger in America: 2016 United States Hunger and Poverty Facts ... Hunger Quiz: Hunger in the United States and the U.S. food system.

Hunger In America - Outnumber Hunger
https://www.outnumberhunger.com/hunger-in-america
Together We Can Outnumber Hunger. 1 IN 7 AMERICANS. One in seven people struggle with hunger in America. 12 MILLION. More than 12 million families in America face hunger. 5.4 MILLION. Feeding America's network of member food banks serves 5.4 million individuals each week.

11 Facts About Hunger in the US | DoSomething.org | Volunteer for ...
https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-fa ... -hunger-us
Nov 8, 2014 - 1 in 6 people in America face hunger. The USDA defines "food insecurity" as the lack of access, at times, to enough food for all household ...

The New Face of Hunger - National Geographic
www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/
Millions of working Americans don't know where their next meal is coming from. We sent three photographers to explore hunger in three very different parts of ...

5 Things You Didn't Know About Hunger in America - The Atlantic
www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/20 ... ca/458757/
Jan 6, 2016 - More Americans Are Hungry. In 2010, after the recession, hunger rose to 5.4 percent, and has hovered around the current 5.6 percent for years.

Hunger in the United States - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_in ... ted_States
Hunger in the United States is an issue that affects millions of Americans, including some who are middle class, or who are in households where all adults are in ...

A Turning Point for Hunger in America | TIME
time.com/4477157/hunger-america-history/
Sep 7, 2016 - As food security increases, it's worth remembering that the modern effort to end hunger in America is newer than might be supposed. Getting ...

States where the most children go hungry - USA Today
www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2 ... y/8151905/
Feeding America — the largest hunger relief charity and network of food banks in the U.S. — created Map the Meal Gap, a study measuring ...

The Return of American Hunger - The Atlantic
www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/20 ... er/492062/
In a lot of states, benign neglect is the most that hungry Americans can expect from their government. What they get instead is usually worse: ...

The hunger crisis in America's universities | MSNBC
www.msnbc.com/msnbc/the-hunger-crisis-a ... iversities
Hungry students don't enter the on-campus food pantry at New York's ... Feeding America's 2014 Hunger in America report estimates that ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=hunger+ ... 8&oe=utf-8
Does anyone else conclude 'the left' is responsible for all or most of the above?
bluethread wrote: They say it is because we do not have enough government.
Is that just a WEE BIT of oversimplification – to the point of being silly?
bluethread wrote: Now, you say that we need less government. Well, don't that just beat all.
Have I said we need less government? Or is that something you just decide to flail against? Notice what I actually said was 'I also would not oppose a moratorium on building grandiose government structures and monuments – until poverty and economic inequality are successfully addressed.'

It 'beasts all' when Apologists cannot debate straight-across without attempting to manipulate the position of others. Is their position THAT weak – weak enough to require such tactics?
bluethread wrote: By the way, why is it that everyone always points to a poor woman and not a poor man. Are women unable to take care of themselves? That sounds kind of sexist to me.
I agree. It was VERY sexist. We are talking about women in the era of temple sacrifices. Right?

What I read from that era indicates the society was highly male chauvinistic / sexist. Bible stories tell of women being unable to make their own way and needing males to provide for them. There are remnants of that attitude in modern times.
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Post #76

Post by bluethread »

[Replying to post 75 by Zzyzx]

You are funny. How many "homeless people" sleep in your house? Also, I did not say that the buildings were devoted to care for the poor. I said that they exist supposedly to see that the poor are taken care of. In other words they are there to house the offices of those selfless government workers that direct money from our pockets to the supposed "deserving poor". Yet, even though there are some 126 federal government programs spending $630 BILLION a year, we are told there are still women and children going hungry. Is that because we do not have enough government? That said, I think you overlooked the fact that I said that it was fine with me if we stopped building monuments. I'll add to that all of the Federal paid time off for memorials, which I suspect result in more "waste" than the burnt offerings ever did.

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Post #77

Post by Zzyzx »

.
bluethread wrote: You are funny.
Perhaps it seems so to those with a warped sense of humor.
bluethread wrote: How many "homeless people" sleep in your house?
None. I do not welcome anyone into my private space.

However, I have an additional residence on my property and HAVE housed (at no charge) people who need a place to live (hopefully temporarily – though one was over a year). A few hours ago I spoke to a man who sleeps in makeshift quarters in an auction building about the possibility of living on my property once he gets a vehicle – since my place is some distance from town.

What do you do to house homeless people or feed the hungry?

I was at that auction building today to pick up twelve large boxes of food I purchased in last night's auction for the purpose of donating it to food pantries and places that feed hungry people. I am well known in this area for doing such things – although I try to stay in the background.
bluethread wrote: Also, I did not say that the buildings were devoted to care for the poor. I said that they exist supposedly to see that the poor are taken care of.
Go down the list and identify those agencies that actually exist 'supposedly' to see that the poor are taken care of.
bluethread wrote: In other words they are there to house the offices of those selfless government workers that direct money from our pockets to the supposed "deserving poor". Yet, even though there are some 126 federal government programs spending $630 BILLION a year, we are told there are still women and children going hungry.
What percentage of total government spending is actually devoted to helping the poor?

Do you doubt that people go hungry?
Feeding America wrote: Hunger and Poverty Facts and Statistics

Although related, food insecurity and poverty are not the same. Poverty in the United States is only one of many factors associated with food insecurity. In fact, higher unemployment, lower household assets, and certain demographic characteristics also lead to a lack of access to adequate, nutritious food. Read on for national hunger and poverty facts and statistics, or visit Map the Meal Gap for state-specific information.
Poverty Statistics in the United States

In 2015:

43.1 million people (13.5 percent) were in poverty.
24.4 million (12.4 percent) of people ages 18-64 were in poverty.
14.5 million (19.7 percent) children under the age of 18 were in poverty.
4.2 million (8.8 percent) seniors 65 and older were in poverty.
The overall poverty rate according to the Supplemental Poverty Measure is 14.3 percent, significantly higher than the official poverty rate of 13.5 percent.[ii]
Under the Supplemental Poverty Measure, there are 45.7 million people living in poverty, 2.6 million more than are represented by the official poverty measure (43.1 million).[iii]

Food Insecurity and Very Low Food Security[iv]

In 2015:

42.2 million Americans lived in food insecure households, including 29.1 million adults and 13.1 million children.
13 percent of households (15.8 million households) were food insecure.
5 percent of households (6.3 million households) experienced very low food security.
Households with children reported food insecurity at a significantly higher rate than those without children, 17 percent compared to 11 percent.
Households that had higher rates of food insecurity than the national average included households with children (17%), especially households with children headed by single women (30%) or single men (22%), Black non-Hispanic households (22%) and Hispanic households (19%).

In 2014:

In 2014, 5.4million seniors (over age 60), or 9 percent of all seniors were food insecure.[v]
Food insecurity exists in every county in America, ranging from a low of 4 percent in Loudoun County, VA to a high of 38 percent in Jefferson County, MS.[vi]

Twelve states exhibited statistically significantly higher household food-insecurity rates than the U.S. national average 2013-2015 (13.7%)[vii]:

Mississippi 20.8 %
Arkansas 19.2 %
Louisiana 18.4 %
Alabama 17.6 %
Kentucky 17.6 %
Ohio 16.1 %
Oregon 16.1 %
North Carolina 15.9 %
Maine 15.8 %
Oklahoma 15.5 %
Texas 15.4 %
Tennessee 15.1 %
http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in ... sheet.html

I have done volunteer work at the Feeding America organization's facility in Little Rock (formerly known as America's Second Harvest) – that handles 11 million pounds of food per year destined for food banks and soup kitchens.

bluethread wrote:
Is that because we do not have enough government?

I attribute much or most of the cause of homelessness and hunger to maldistribution of resources and opportunities in our society.

What is your suggestion?

bluethread wrote:
That said, I think you overlooked the fact that I said that it was fine with me if we stopped building monuments.

Congratulations. Most Theists seem to be in favor of building palaces of worship.

bluethread wrote:
I'll add to that all of the Federal paid time off for memorials, which I suspect result in more "waste" than the burnt offerings ever did.

How can one rationally compare the waste of federal time off vs. burnt offerings thousands of years ago? What standard is used in such comparisons?
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Post #78

Post by FinalEnigma »

bluethread wrote: [Replying to post 75 by Zzyzx]

You are funny. How many "homeless people" sleep in your house? Also, I did not say that the buildings were devoted to care for the poor. I said that they exist supposedly to see that the poor are taken care of. In other words they are there to house the offices of those selfless government workers that direct money from our pockets to the supposed "deserving poor". Yet, even though there are some 126 federal government programs spending $630 BILLION a year, we are told there are still women and children going hungry. Is that because we do not have enough government? That said, I think you overlooked the fact that I said that it was fine with me if we stopped building monuments. I'll add to that all of the Federal paid time off for memorials, which I suspect result in more "waste" than the burnt offerings ever did.
Forgive me, I cannot seem to understand how your argument has anything to do with the topic.

You questioned Zzyzx on how many homeless people sleep in his house. Is this because the charitable practices of a single man in modern America determines whether animal sacrifice 2000 years ago was a waste of resources that should have gone to the poor?

And you have made arguments against government wastefulness and left wing America. Is this because government wastefulness in the united states in the year 2016 is relevant to how man ought to have behaved 2000 years ago?

You will have to help me understand how these things are relevant to the debate.

From what perspective is it ethical and reasonable to destroy resources as a sacrifice to God instead of using those resources to help your fellow man?
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Re: Animal Sacrifice: Why turn a blind eye?

Post #79

Post by nobspeople »

jgh7 wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:41 pm There are detailed rules in the Old Testament for conducting animal sacrifice both as a means of praise to God and as a means of seeking forgiveness/atonement for sins.

I view animal sacrifice as barbaric nonsensical cruelty to animals. The notion that forgiveness or worship of God are linked to killing an animal is disturbing.

How do Christians reconcile the rules of animal sacrifice in the OT? They eventually were phased out, but they certainly existed for a long time when the OT was in effect (thousands of years perhaps).

To me, this is enough to completely dismiss Christianity from a religious standpoint. I will not partake in a religion whose God once condoned animal sacrifice. I mean, my common sense tells me it's disturbing to the point that it would be silly to partake in such a religion.

Questions:

Do you view animal sacrifice as barbaric/cruel/disturbing?
If yes, then doesn't this mean that the bible God is barbaric/cruel/disturbing since He approved of it and had detailed rules for it written in the OT?
Any deity that demands a sacrifice of the life of another living being is barbaric. I think that a loving god (as he's said to be) would think the spilling of blood of anything isn't important or necessary. So either the Christian god is a tool and unworthy of anything other than contempt or the Christian god isn't about this at all and that belief comes from the writers of those stories.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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