Blastcat wrote:
[
Replying to post 178 by William]
I'm in the subset of atheists who reject theism.
William wrote:
You lack belief in gods and also reject theism.
Well that's a start.
That's correct: I lack a belief in gods and goddesses, and I reject theism.
Okay.
But it's not where I start.. it's my CONCLUSION, so it's the end.
Atheism is the label for the conclusion at the END of the investigation, not the start.
So it is for you. Other atheist believe this to be the other way around. That everyone naturally starts off from the default position of 'Atheist'.
Q: What are your beliefs about that?
I have to reject theism because I don't believe in any gods or goddesses, as theism is a belief in gods or goddesses.
Based on that I would have to conclude that you are the type of atheist who believes one has to be exposed to ideas of GOD(s) and then reject those,
before you can declare yourself as an 'atheist.'
Q: Is this correct?
William wrote:
What do you mean when you say you reject theism?
I don't accept the claims that theism makes because they haven't met their burden of the proof.
Obviously then you are the type of atheist who believes that;
IF;
any GOD existed
THEN;
That GOD should easily be able to be
scientifically verified. The existence of the GOD should be able to be shown to exist through scientifically verifiable evidence.
Q: Am I correct about this position you presently retain?
William wrote:
When you say that do you mean all types of theism?
That's right.
Okay.
William wrote:
Do you repudiate theism because theism doesn't lack belief in god(s) or are there other reasons?
I began to lose my belief in God because of learning how to think well... The more I did that, the less the claims of religions made sense.
Okay - so I am not sure that this fully answers my question. It appears that you rejst theism on account of any and all ideas of GOD, and in learning to 'think well' as you put it, meant that any ideas of GOD were classified as something which comes about through people who have not learned to 'think well.
Q: Would this be correct?
William wrote:
Do you repudiate everything else which isn't theism but exhibits any other things which you [might] have reason to also reject theism for?
I use skepticism, so any claim which does not have enough evidence for, I simply do not believe. I can't pretend to believe what logic dictates that I have no justification for. I make a lot of mistakes, and that's USUALLY due to believing too much. I usually find out that a belief I thought was TRUE.. turned out to be false. That's always a little humbling.
When I correct a mistake like that, I call it an instance of learning.There are lots of ways of learning, but that's a great one. A false belief gets in the way of learning.
Again, this doesn't seem to really fully answer my question so I will attempt to re-frame that question.
But first, perhaps it would be better to find out from you whether your whole anti theist position is focused upon the rejection of any idea of GOD or does it also involve rejecting the bad things you might see coming through theism - through organised religions for example.
Q: Do those bad things concern you and help support your particular type of atheist position, or is the focus solely on rejecting all ideas of GOD?
William wrote:
Do you repudiate theism for all that it injects into human society regardless of any good it may be doing?
I think that theism has it's share of good results. Religions are made up of people, and some people are fantastic. I attribute the good that religions do to the GOOD PEOPLE involved, not to any particular theology.
Good people would use just about ANY THEOLOGY for good.
But of course, the opposite is also true. Bad people can use just about any theology to justify bad things up to, and including war.
Okay.
Q: Do those bad things concern you and help support your particular type of atheist position, or is the focus solely on rejecting all ideas of GOD?
When they say that "Islam is the religion of peace", for example, I think it's true of the PEACE LOVING people in Islam. War loving people use Islam to justify war.
It's the people that matter.. not the particular religion.
Q: As an atheist you hate that an idea of GOD can be used not only to promote peace but also to incite war?
Q: Do you consider yourself an atheist in terms of the political branch of human society, or is atheism not applicable in the political arena?
Q: Does atheism have any part to play in politics?
Q: Is there a branch of atheism where war is also promoted?
Q: What do you think the seeds of war are sown through?
For example, are people born to hate or do they learn to hate?
Q: Would you consider that argument which isn't resolved between two individuals or parties could sow the seeds for eventual war?
Q: Do you consider war to be anything at all which results in physical violence or do you think it can apply to anything which is not at peace with everything else?
Q: What, if anything, can atheism help to do in the way of contributing to peace?
So, basically, you will find me arguing about these subjects in here:
1. Logic.. if the theist isn't making sense, I will point it out and explain why. Just because someone is a theist, it doesn't mean they make sense. In fact, I often argue with an atheist if I think his logic fails.
Okay
2. Facts. We just gotta have facts.
Q: Atheists have to have facts? Is this another understanding of atheism? The fact that there is no obvious scientific evidence of any GOD=atheism?
Q: What about those atheists who claim that everyone starts out as an atheist? That all human babies are atheists? Atheists without facts, as it were.
If we are talking about something fictional, I lose interest in a hurry, so I ask for evidence and sources, etc...
Q: If you believe something to be fictional, then why would you demand facts?
It seems illogical.
Q: Are you perhaps hoping some evidence for GOD would surface somehow through someone?
Some people think that their opinions are facts, and that's just another logical error. I point those out.
Q: Do you think your opinions are facts?
It appears to me that you base you position of lack of facts.
Q: Does the fact that there is no obvious scientific evidence for the existence of GODs
mean that GOD therefore does not exist?
Q: In demanding burden of proof for the existence of GOD, what facts would you expect to be shown?
Obviously from what you have said re 'why you are an atheist' you are the type who rejects all ideas of GODs.
Q: Do you understand that some ideas of GODs are beyond the reach of present day scientific ability to investigate?
Q: In instances where this is the case, do you think it is logical to assume the position of atheism in the way that you justify doing so regardless of whether facts can actually be presented or not?
Q: If so, then why?
3. Morality. And that's a shame. Religions claim that their system is the best morality there is... and that's simply not true.
Q: Is morality important to you? Is atheism about morality or simply about lacking belief in GODs?
It's shocking, but it isn't. I think that in the past, it used to be ASSUMED that it was true. Now, we can use skepticism to tell the difference. When it comes to moral thinking, times have changed since the Bible was written, and changed FOR THE BETTER. I'm always pointing out how the Christian god is an insane evil psychopath, for example. Believers have a real hard time with that one, but all I do is to point to the Bible stories.
Q: Are ALL bible stories about insane evil psychopath ideas of GOD? Obviously you are making the claim, but is it truthful?
Perhaps it is more just a case of association and even for the purpose of strengthening ones position in relation to the idea you are endorsing here.
How do you explain those good thing which have come into the world through Abrahamic organised religions influences?
You claim that the use of skepticism allows you to 'tell the difference' but it certainly appears in your expression that there ARE no differences in relation to theism, and obviously especially in relation to Abrahamic theists. Perhaps in certain cases you are leaving skepticism at the door when in attack mode re these specific types of theism?
Q: Do you think this is a fair observation on my part, re your position?
There is a saying that theism should stay out of politics.
Q: Do you think that atheism should also refrain from being involved with politics?
