Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

[Zzyzx]

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There is no absolute or universally accepted standard for right, wrong, good, bad, evil.

Some societies do NOT regard as evil or bad such things as: cannibalism, infanticide, premarital sex, theft and lying (at least as applied to 'others'), etc.

Some societies DO regard as evil such things as: homosexuality, interracial marriage, speaking against religious or secular leaders, drawing cartoons of 'prophets', women appearing in public without complete coverage or driving automobiles, etc.

Where is the 'absolute' or 'universal' in the above?

Some Religionists claim that their 'god' set a universal or absolute standard – however, they cannot agree among themselves exactly what the 'god' supposedly decreed. Different religions have VERY different ideas about what 'god has said'. Even denominations within the major religions teach different standards.

If I say that homosexuality is NOT 'wrong' or 'evil' and you (generic term) say that it IS 'wrong' and 'evil', we have both expressed OPINIONS. I can cite US law that clearly states that homosexuality is NOT illegal. You can cite Bible stories that say that it is a 'sin'. NEITHER of those establishes any absolute or universal 'right and wrong'

Can anyone justify a claim that ANY 'right and wrong' etc is absolute or universal?

[McCulloch]

Those that believe there is no God are still essentially expressing their opinion (for they cannot possibly claim to know everything that is, has been or could be without making themselves the very thing they don't believe in ... a god) thus they are not in a position to say there can be no absolute standard, only that they do not believe in absolute standards.

Those that believe there is a God are still essentially expressing their opinion. But to say that atheists cannot without a god believe in absolute standards is wrong. I believe that there are natural laws discovered by the processes of the sciences of physics, chemistry, biology, geology etc. There are also mathematical laws discovered through the process of logic. And while we may not fully understand them, these constitute absolute standards.
There could also be similar absolute ethical and moral standards. Not given to us by alleged revelations from a supposed supernatural being, but discoverable through what Michael Shermer calls the Science of Good and Evil.

[1213]

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There is no absolute or universally accepted standard for right, wrong, good, bad, evil.

Some societies do NOT regard as evil or bad such things as: cannibalism, infanticide, premarital sex, theft and lying (at least as applied to 'others'), etc. ...

I think that “at least as applied to 'others'� is an important point. Many may think everything is ok, when done to others, but if done for himself, then it is not ok. That leads to conclusion, absolute good and right is what you don’t want to be done to you. Everybody agrees it? Or are you saying that to you, people are allowed to do whatever they want?

[Zzyzx]

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That leads to conclusion, absolute good and right is what you don’t want to be done to you. Everybody agrees it?

It doesn't work any better to reverse the claim. Some people don't want to be resuscitated, some do not want to be given high paying jobs or big bank accounts, some do not want to be associated with their family, etc.

Or are you saying that to you, people are allowed to do whatever they want?

I say people should be free to do whatever they want in their personal life, provided it does not infringe upon the life or rights of others.


None of the above is indication of "absolute good and right'.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 15:

True.

But it is a fallacy of bad logic to thus claim that good and evil are therefore 'opinions'.

Is it "good", or is it "evil", that I sneak me a look behind them shower sheets at that pretty thing there, without me tellin' 'er it is I do?

I violate her privacy on a showerly basis.

And grin like a possum eating sausage when I do.

Some'll say I'm evil for having done it. I say give me a few dollars and change, and I'll provide documentary evidence of how good it is to do it!

Just think of something you regard to be evil - I am sure you can think of many.

That pretty thing a-findin' me out, and a-gluin' my eyes shut!

Now imagine that this evil became an actuality in your life.

Are you going to claim that it is simply someone's opinion?

Conundrum. Is it good to cook you up some instant grits, when you got all the time in the world to fetch on the real'ns?

No, you are not. You are going to refer to it as evil, and you are going to see it as an injustice and you are going to want justice.

Naw, I was in this one town there, that time or two, and if you ordered grits, you couldn't fetch out and smoke you up a joint 'fore it is, them grits was served. What kinda cyborg is it, they can fetch up a mess of grits, 'fore it is, you can cut it down, sprinkle it out, roll it up, fire it up, and run fetchin' back in?

Them ain't grits. Them's modern conveniences served up by Satan himself.

And they didn't even put out a plate of butter!

You are not going to have the opinion that the evil done to you is just 'opinion.'

Not when others get to declare it "Divine retribution!"

[1213]

I say people should be free to do whatever they want in their personal life, provided it does not infringe upon the life or rights of others.

Do you know any person who disagrees with that they should be free to do what they want? If not, isn’t that universal good?

[Zzyzx]

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I say people should be free to do whatever they want in their personal life, provided it does not infringe upon the life or rights of others.

Do you know any person who disagrees with that they should be free to do what they want? If not, isn’t that universal good?

MANY people disagree that they should be free to do what they want -- including Christians / Theists / Religionists who seem to feel as though they should / must do as instructed by their religion (not what they want -- perhaps even directly opposed to what they want).

Here in debate some maintain that without religious constraints they would 'run amok' (doing whatever they want) -- but they do as they are instructed instead.

Even if everyone we know and can learn about opines that it is good to be free to do what they want, that would be no assurance that it was a 'universal good' since we do not have a means to learn about 7+ billion Earth residents.

[William]

[Replying to post 24 by JoeyKnothead]

Malarkey is all I could really garner from that post Joey. Harmless fun perhaps. I was hoping for a reply from Zzyzx, but if this is about all that can be offered as some kind of reply, I guess I can rest my case. Opinion is not what good and evil are.

Cheers.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 2 by Elijah John]

The Golden Rule seems pretty universal.

The question was about some ABSOLUTE morality.. not a "pretty universal" one.

[1213]

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Do you know any person who disagrees with that they should be free to do what they want? If not, isn’t that universal good?

MANY people disagree that they should be free to do what they want -- including Christians / Theists / Religionists who seem to feel as though they should / must do as instructed by their religion (not what they want -- perhaps even directly opposed to what they want).

But the Christian’s seem to want that, so it is still about what they want. But it is possible to have many things that person wants, even things that are contradictory and then what person wants most, is what matters.

Even if everyone we know and can learn about opines that it is good to be free to do what they want, that would be no assurance that it was a 'universal good' since we do not have a means to learn about 7+ billion Earth residents.

Ok, I agree with that, and even if all people would agree on this, I don’t think it could be said it is then universal good. Probably there is no universal good. There can be things that are good in God’s opinion and there can be things that are good in human’s opinion. I don’t know even how something could be called universal good.

[Zzyzx]

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Even if everyone we know and can learn about opines that it is good to be free to do what they want, that would be no assurance that it was a 'universal good' since we do not have a means to learn about 7+ billion Earth residents.

Ok, I agree with that, and even if all people would agree on this, I don’t think it could be said it is then universal good. Probably there is no universal good.

Okay, we can agree at least tentatively that there probably is no 'universal good'.

There can be things that are good in God’s opinion and there can be things that are good in human’s opinion. I don’t know even how something could be called universal good.

Humans can't agree about what is good -- and even the same individual may have a change of mind about something they previously thought 'good' but later come to think exactly the opposite.

Is there some way to learn 'God's opinion' that is more trustworthy / reliable than taking someone's word or making up something in our head?