Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

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Justin108
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Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #1

Post by Justin108 »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
polonius.advice wrote:They now insist that Jesus did return but he is invisible.

If so, how would they know he has returned?
If you are refering to JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES we believe know because of the signs Jesus provided to identify the time (see Mat 24, Lk 21, Mk 14) and we believe it started in 1914 because of our interpretation of bible chronology (see link below).

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https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -prophecy/


JW
1. What exactly happened in 1914 that points to Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 14?

2. Was 1914 unique in this regard? For example, Luke 21 mentions "wars and uprisings". In what way is 1914 unique in terms of wars and uprisings?

3. According to (my understanding of) Jehovah's Witnesses' claims, Jesus' rule from 1914 is hidden and behind the scenes. His rule is invisible to most of us. Did Jehovah's Witnesses predict that Jesus' rule would be behind the scenes from the start? Or did they initially believe that Jesus' rule will be clearly apparent to everyone, and only after 1914 when no Jesus was to be found did they change their conclusion to "well Jesus must be doing it in heaven where no one can see"?

4. Do you consider the possibility that your interpretation might be wrong and that Jesus did not return in 1914? Or do you believe that it is an indisputable fact that Jesus returned in 1914?

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #21

Post by rikuoamero »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote:Don't you think Satan's "visits" to Heaven could be accounted for by his evolving role in Judaic thought?
No Jehovah's Witnesses believe angels (spirits) actually exist. We believe God is a spirit and not just a man made idea and we believe that angels are other spirits that actually exist.

JW
I'm sorry, but I can't understand this quote.
No {Insert Group Name} believe cars (vehicles) exist. We believe Toyota is a car, and we believe that Fords are other vehicles that actually exist.
Unless you meant to say something else, what I see here is a contradiction.
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I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #22

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]
Further, as organizations (especially religious ones) grow they tend to break apart into regional groups with their own cultural or regional particularities; this is what happened to apostate Christianity. That same expansion tends to produce prominent personalities that in turn tend to reject centralization. The sustained global unity of the message of Jehovah's Witnesses is another feature that gives evidence of divine backing.
If you mean that all who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses all say the same thing...then you are wrong.
Either you are lying or you are completely ignorant of the existence of JW splinter groups.
I have a copy of the 2006 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses. If you yourself have a copy, go to page 116, where it mentions that Romanian JWs, existing in a country cut off from communications with the Watchtower due to the Communist regime, did not hear what the Watchtower declared the 'superior authorities' mentioned in Romans 13 to be (human governments, and not God, was the declaration). The Romanian JWs distrusted this, because in their minds, it was a sneak attempt to promote subservience to the Communists who were badly mistreating them.
In 1992, some Romanian JWs formed their own group, called the True Faith Jehovah's Witnesses Association. They thought that after 1962, the Watchtower had lost their way, had corrupted Jehovah God's teachings.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #23

Post by Elijah John »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote:Don't you think Satan's "visits" to Heaven could be accounted for by his evolving role in Judaic thought?
No Jehovah's Witnesses believe angels (spirits) actually exist. We believe God is a spirit and not just a man made idea and we believe that angels are other spirits that actually exist.

JW
A person can believe an entity is real while still holding that one's understanding of the role and activity of said entity has evolved over time. It's not either/or.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 23 by Elijah John]

Yes I suppose you are right, that is a possibility. Many do hold that view, I didnt want to give the impression that there weren't such people with such views.

Thanks for pointing that out, I should have been clearer,

JW
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Romans 14:8

Justin108
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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #25

Post by Justin108 »

rikuoamero wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote:Don't you think Satan's "visits" to Heaven could be accounted for by his evolving role in Judaic thought?
No Jehovah's Witnesses believe angels (spirits) actually exist. We believe God is a spirit and not just a man made idea and we believe that angels are other spirits that actually exist.

JW
I'm sorry, but I can't understand this quote.
No {Insert Group Name} believe cars (vehicles) exist. We believe Toyota is a car, and we believe that Fords are other vehicles that actually exist.
Unless you meant to say something else, what I see here is a contradiction.
I think he forgot a comma in the beginning there. "No, Jehovah's Witnesses believe angels (spirits) actually exist"

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #26

Post by Justin108 »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:the organization and implementation of a stupendous international preaching and teaching program (Mat 24:14), and much more...
Again, why attribute this to Jesus? Why not just attribute this to the various religious institutions? Do you think that had Jesus not been ruling since 1914 that it would be impossible for religious institutions to preach internationally? Muslims preach all the time, yet I doubt you believe that this is due to Muhammad's rule. So if Muslims can preach without Muhammad being in power, why do Jehovah's Witnesses need Jesus ruling in heaven in order to preach?
Because no other organization on earth, religious or not, has even come CLOSE to achieving what Jehovah's Witnesses have done in our modern age.


PREACHING: Not just a "clergy" class, not just islamic "imam" every member

To have 8 million people, men women and children, go from door to door free of charge bible in hand to speak to people at their own home year after year, is not something any human can achieve . No other organization whether religious, commercial, political or social has the incentives can move every single member of a community to such action, not for a campaign of a few months or even years but every single month for as long as they live.
The Church of Scientology convinces its members to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to advance their OT levels. People go bankrupt over this. There have been cults where followers are so dedicated, they commit ritualistic suicide. Ever heard of the Jonestown massacre? Not to mention radical Muslims who blow themselves up in the name of Allah. People give everything they have, including their lives, to their religion all the time and you think that it's amazing that Jehovah's Witnesses go door to door...?

What have you done for your faith lately?
Scientologist: I gave my entire life savings to my church
Radical Muslim: I'm going to blow myself up next week
Jehovah's Witness: I'm... going to knock on someone's door and talk to them a bit...
JehovahsWitness wrote: PREACHING: A lifelong calling rather than a time bound "campaign"

Mormon men (I think men only) have missionary service for only two years, and in many muslim communities Muslim women are not even allowed out of their homes let alone to go to strangers homes and speak to them about their faith. If the Pope asked all Catholics to go from door to door or no longer be considered Catholic, their numbers would I think plummet to single figures and if they or Coca Cola asked its employees to do this out of love of the product without pay, I wonder how long that would last.
So basically what you're saying is that so many other Christians preach, but because you preach the most, it must logically follow that Jesus must be behind it?
JehovahsWitness wrote:if they or Coca Cola asked its employees to do this out of love of the product without pay, I wonder how long that would last.
All you're proving is that Jehovah's Witnesses are dedicated. Well good for you guys. But being dedicated to an ideal does not make that ideal true. It is possible for people to be dedicated to a false religion. It is possible for Jehovah's Witnesses to spend their every waking moment preaching the Gospel and still be wrong about it. None of this proves Jesus' rule. All it proves is that Jehovah's Witnesses are dedicated.
JehovahsWitness wrote: PREACHING: Without pay, without charging

Apostate Christianity (and Islam) was spread with the sword, but that hundreds of thousands of people a year voluntarily join in this work (despite opposition, ridicule and in some countries at the risk of their lives) is testimony in my opinion to a higher power.
No, it's testimony that these people think there is a higher power. Again, it is possible to be dedicated to a false ideal.
JehovahsWitness wrote:They have neither been paid nor do they charge for their time, what human organization has been able to increase without advertising...
Going door to door isn't advertising?
JehovahsWitness wrote: PREACHING: Despite opposition

Further, some of the most powerful regimes in the world vowing to wipe Jehovah's Witnesses out and put an end to their preaching work, but rather than that their numbers increase, how can this be explained?
Dedication... If a Muslim claimed "we won the Crusades because of Allah's glory", how would you respond? How can it be explained that the "enemy" won a Holy War against the One True God? Does it suggest divine intervention? Or simply the dedication of the Muslims?
JehovahsWitness wrote:Sheer determination, personal conviction and enthusiasm is simply not enough to compell an entire commuityy in this way.
Yes it is.
JehovahsWitness wrote:Yes an entire community will fight to the death for their own survival, but Jehovah's Witnesses are at the very least suffering financial
As are Scientologists. FAR more than Jehovah's Witnesses.
http://www.xenu.net/archive/prices.html
JehovahsWitness wrote:loss and inconvenience and at the most paying with their lives what they believe to be the survival of others, this is extraordinary.
Radical Muslims and cultists literally pay with their lives. Or do you think that going door to door is a bigger sacrifice than killing yourself?
JehovahsWitness wrote: PREACHING The same message, the same standards in every country

As organizations grow they tend to break apart into regional groups with their own cultural or regional particularities.
Kind of like how Christianity broke up into various groups to finally form Jehovah's Witnesses? You are not the core of Christianity. Christianity is not as unified as you try to make it sound. You are one little sect of a largely broken-up religion.
JehovahsWitness wrote: CONCLUSION The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is unequaled in human history, it is a modern day miracle and I believe clear evidence they have been as a group protected, guided and enabled to prosper spiritual due to their king and leader Jesus Christ.
Odd that you would use these precise criteria to show off how "unequal" your religion is. Why didn't you mention that you are the fastest growing religion? Wait, that's Islam. Why not mention that you're the largest Christian sect? Oh because that's Catholicism. The oldest religion? That's Hinduism. Of course, if you cherry pick the criteria for "most amazing religion ever", then you can force yours to win the race. What if a Catholic argued that Catholicism is true because it has the most numbers? Or because it's the oldest? Or because it was started by Peter? Essentially, your entire argument amounts to "because we preach more than the others do".

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote:Don't you think Satan's "visits" to Heaven could be accounted for by his evolving role in Judaic thought?
No Jehovah's Witnesses believe angels (spirits) actually exist. We believe God is a spirit and not just a man made idea and we believe that angels are other spirits that actually exist.

JW
A person can believe an entity is real while still holding that one's understanding of the role and activity of said entity has evolved over time. It's not either/or.

Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible is a mixture of statments that can be taken literally and statements that are to be taken metaphorically (or viewed as paraboles , illustrations or symbols)

JW


RELATED POST

How to differentiate differentiate between metaphor and literal statements?

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 395#890395
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Who decides?

Post #28

Post by polonius »

JW posted:
Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible is a mixture of statments that can be taken literally and statements that are to be taken metaphorically (or viewed as paraboles , illustrations or symbols)
QUESTION: Does each JW member get to decide for themselves which is which?

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Re: Who decides?

Post #29

Post by JehovahsWitness »

polonius.advice wrote: JW posted:
Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible is a mixture of statments that can be taken literally and statements that are to be taken metaphorically (or viewed as paraboles , illustrations or symbols)
QUESTION: Does each JW member get to decide for themselves which is which?
Who else could? Short of MK Ultra Mind control I can't see how anyone else can decide what another chooses to believe.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Justin108
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Re: Who decides?

Post #30

Post by Justin108 »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
polonius.advice wrote: JW posted:
Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible is a mixture of statments that can be taken literally and statements that are to be taken metaphorically (or viewed as paraboles , illustrations or symbols)
QUESTION: Does each JW member get to decide for themselves which is which?
Who else could? Short of MK Ultra Mind control I can't see how anyone else can decide what another chooses to believes.
Suppose a Jehovah's Witness were to interpret that the Trinity is true. Would the Church still accept them and allow them to preach on their behalf?

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