Mormonism is NOT Chistian

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doctrinematters
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Mormonism is NOT Chistian

Post #1

Post by doctrinematters »

Mormonism is built upon the foundation of Joseph Smith's claim, which had no witnesses, that God and Jesus appeared to him and told him when he was age 14, 15, or 16, that all Christian Creeds were an abomination and that those who believe them were all corrupt:


Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. (1805 - 1844):

“My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.�
“I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'�

Mormons have always cast aspersions on orthodox Christianity:

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Joseph Smith–History, v. 1, pp. 8–26

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world"

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 270

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. , The Elders Journal, v. 1, no. 4, p. 60

The Second supposed prophet of the Mormon system, agreed:


Prophet Brigham Young (1801 - 1877):

“He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong; that they were following the precepts of men instead of the Lord Jesus; that He had a work for him to perform, inasmuch as he should prove faithful before Him.�

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 171

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was groveling in darkness."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 73

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 171

“...the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans. And subsequently the Priesthood was taken from among men, this authority was re-called into the heavens, and the world was left without the Priesthood—without the power of God—without the Church and Kingdom of God.�

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 22, p. 44

Today's Mormons embrace the title "Christian," and want acceptance by Christians:

LDS.org: "Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unequivocally affirm themselves to be Christians. They worship God the Eternal Father in the name of Jesus Christ."

However, they don't and won't tell you (unless you dig it out of their archives) that the "god" they call "the father," is an appointed god, grew up on another planet as a human being, and was "exalted" to his position of the god ruling over planet earth. This was taught by Joseph Smith, see Smith's King Follett Discourse and http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/ser ... sermon.htm

The "jesus" of Mormonism has nothing to do with the Christian/Biblical Jesus, as we can learn here: http://www.searchingthescriptures.net/m ... _jesus.htm

According to the Mormons, their jesus was simply the first spirit baby born to polygamous deities ruling planet earth. Satan was the second, thus making Jesus and Satan spirit brothers. Romney tried to weasel around this doctrine when he was running for President, but the evidence is overwhelming. Mormon jesus is simply a brother to all other spirits which make up humanity and angels, and demons. Mormon jesus atoned for sins in Gethsemane, and although he shed his blood to establish the New Covenant, Joseph Smith's blood was added to his in order to "restore" the New Covenant:

Ensign June 1994: " Like his Master, Joseph Smith also shed his blood in order that the final testament, the reestablishment of the new covenant, might be in full effect"

Christians, think of the evil in that remark!

While today's Mormons attempt to elicit the support of Christians, and pretend that they are Christians (this helps their missionaries who go door to door), they will never mention what I have just posted here. I have only posted their own words and statements. If there is a Mormon who is "moderating" on this forum, I wonder what they would say about this?

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Re: Mormonism is NOT Chistian

Post #11

Post by dianaiad »

ttruscott wrote:
Tcg wrote: [Replying to post 1 by doctrinematters]

You are suggesting that, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", is not Christian? Of course they are Christian.

They follow the stories about a dude given the name of Jesus. Sure, they add some stuff to your book in the same way you added stuff to the Jew's book. They simply added stuff more recently than you did.

You are near sighted...what they seem to have added is that all of orthodox Christianity is lies...not a "simple" addition at all.
Oh, it's not all lies. mainstream Christianity has a LOT of truth in it. Just not as much as we do.

.........and yes, of course I believe that. If I didn't, I'd go find a belief system that I DID think had more truth than anybody else, join it...

And I'd still be claiming that my belief system, whatever it was, had more truth than anybody else.

Any other attitude is called, er....hypocrisy.

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Post #12

Post by Bust Nak »

Moderator Action

I think a topic on whether something counts as Christian or not, is better served here.


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historia
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Re: Mormonism is NOT Chistian

Post #13

Post by historia »

Tcg wrote:
You are suggesting that, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", is not Christian? Of course they are Christian.
Just because a religious group calls themselves something doesn't necessarily mean we should classify them that way.

Consider, for example, Messianic Jews. They are Christians who call themselves Jews. Does that mean we should classify their beliefs as Judaism?
Tcg wrote:
They follow the stories about a dude given the name of Jesus. Sure, they add some stuff to your book in the same way you added stuff to the Jew's book. They simply added stuff more recently than you did.
I'm not sure this argument actually establishes your claim. In fact, if anything, it would seem to make the opposite point.

Follow the logic here: As you put it, Christians "added stuff to the Jew's book." That's a major reason why we no longer consider them to be Jews. Using that same logic, if the Mormons have "added stuff" to the Christian's book, shouldn't that mean they should no longer be considered Christians?

Compare this to Muslims who also "follow the stories about a dude given the name of Jesus" and have "added stuff" to the Bible. We don't consider them Christians. Nor also the Bahai who have added even more stuff.

Now, none of that is to argue that we shouldn't ultimately conclude Mormons are Christians. But it would seem that these two arguments don't provide a good argument to that effect.

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dianaiad
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Re: Mormonism is NOT Chistian

Post #14

Post by dianaiad »

historia wrote:
Tcg wrote:
You are suggesting that, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", is not Christian? Of course they are Christian.
Just because a religious group calls themselves something doesn't necessarily mean we should classify them that way.

Consider, for example, Messianic Jews. They are Christians who call themselves Jews. Does that mean we should classify their beliefs as Judaism?
Except of course that being a Jew is about more than one's religious beliefs. It's also about heritage, culture and, let's face it, genetics. I know atheistic Jews, and Jews who are Buddhists. Once one compares orthodox Jewish beliefs and some of the more 'reformed' of the reformed Jewish beliefs, one can honestly question whether those beliefs resemble each other a whole lot.

As well, please remember that JESUS Himself was a Jew, and preached only to Jews. He didn't see that conversion to His POV made them any less Jewish....and neither did Peter, Paul or any of the other apostles of the day. The idea, when the teachings of Jesus were expanded to include non-Jews, that those others would be included in the Jewish core of the beliefs, not that they would be separate, never mind what eventually happened.

So...bad example at the very least.
historia wrote:
Tcg wrote:
They follow the stories about a dude given the name of Jesus. Sure, they add some stuff to your book in the same way you added stuff to the Jew's book. They simply added stuff more recently than you did.
I'm not sure this argument actually establishes your claim. In fact, if anything, it would seem to make the opposite point.

Follow the logic here: As you put it, Christians "added stuff to the Jew's book." That's a major reason why we no longer consider them to be Jews. Using that same logic, if the Mormons have "added stuff" to the Christian's book, shouldn't that mean they should no longer be considered Christians?
See the above point.

The thing is, most Christians are not Jews. That does not, however, mean that a Jew who comes to believe in Jesus ceases to be a Jew. He changes belief systems, but not his heritage, his culture or his genetics. Trust me on this; the Jew who converts to Christianity is just as much in danger of passing on Tay Sachs as he was before his baptism. His family remains his family. His traditions...given that they are the traditions Jesus held to...remain his traditions. The only thing HE changes is the idea of who the Messiah is/was.
Tcg wrote:Compare this to Muslims who also "follow the stories about a dude given the name of Jesus" and have "added stuff" to the Bible. We don't consider them Christians. Nor also the Bahai who have added even more stuff.

Now, none of that is to argue that we shouldn't ultimately conclude Mormons are Christians. But it would seem that these two arguments don't provide a good argument to that effect.
Wait. What? If you are referring to your own arguments, they don't provide a good argument to the point you are attempting to make. Consider: for four hundred years after Christ, people were using all manner of different documents as 'scripture,' before a council up and decided which books would be included in the NT....and even then it wasn't settled. JEWS didn't settle their set of scriptures until well after Christ, either. So....hmnn.

No, 'added scripture" doesn't disqualify anybody any more than taking scripture AWAY would. I mean, if it did, both Catholics and Protestants would have problems here.

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Re: Mormonism is NOT Chistian

Post #15

Post by historia »

dianaiad wrote:
Except of course that being a Jew is about more than one's religious beliefs. It's also about heritage, culture and, let's face it, genetics.
dianaiad wrote:
The thing is, most Christians are not Jews. That does not, however, mean that a Jew who comes to believe in Jesus ceases to be a Jew.
I'm afraid you missed the point. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

There are, of course, people who are Jews by ethnicity. That's not what I'm talking about.

Rather, I'm talking about a religious movement known as Messianic Judaism. It is open to anyone, not just those who are ethnically Jewish. It's theological beliefs are clearly and obviously Christian. And yet adherents of this movement refer to it as Messianic Judaism. Should would therefore classify it as being part of Judaism? Or is it really part of Christianity?
dianaiad wrote:
No, 'added scripture" doesn't disqualify anybody any more than taking scripture AWAY would.
I'm not sure what you mean by "disqualify" here.

Tcg argued that "following the stories about a dude given the name of Jesus" is enough to classify a religious movement as Christian. But clearly that is not sufficient, since Muslims, Bahai, and even some New Age movements would meet that definition, and yet we don't consider them Christian.

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Re: Mormonism is NOT Chistian

Post #16

Post by dianaiad »

historia wrote: .............

Tcg argued that "following the stories about a dude given the name of Jesus" is enough to classify a religious movement as Christian. But clearly that is not sufficient, since Muslims, Bahai, and even some New Age movements would meet that definition, and yet we don't consider them Christian.
That's mostly because they don't consider themselves Christian. Indeed, I think that the only two 'qualifications' one needs to be a Christian are first, that one puts the teachings of Jesus Christ (as one believes them to be) at the center of one's belief system, and second, that one claims to be a Christian.

Muslims 'follow' Jesus in that they put Him in the position as a very important prophet; almost equal to, if not equal to, Mohammad...but His teachings are not at the center of their religion, nor do they claim to be Christians. I do believe that something similar goes for the Bahai (though I'm not as familiar with their beliefs as I, perhaps, should be).

Personally, if someone claims to be a Christian, or belong to a Christian belief system, I'm not going to argue with him. I mean, really; what good would it do? There is no argument I could make that would convince someone who believes that s/he is a Christian that s/he is not. It's not only a waste of time, it gets people's backs up.

it's also irrelevant. "Christian," after all, is a classification of belief, not a declaration of salvation.

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