JWs and Jesus Christ

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JWs and Jesus Christ

Post #1

Post by Overcomer »

As with my post on how the Jehovah's Witnesses church sees the Holy Spirit, I will quote verbatim information about Jesus from JW.org followed by my comments.

At JW.org, we read:

Jesus’ opposers accused him of making himself equal to God. (John 5:18; 10:30-33) However, Jesus never claimed to be on the same level as Almighty God. He said: “The Father is greater than I am.�—John 14:28.

My response:

Actually, Jesus DID claim to be God – many times and in several ways. That’s why the Pharisees, scribes, and Sadducees accused him of blasphemy. That’s what blasphemy was – declaring one’s self to be God. John 10:33 reads, “You, a mere man, claim to be God.� And Jesus did not deny it because he was, indeed, declaring himself to be God.

Take a look at Mark 2:1-11. Four men bring a paralytic on a mat. Jesus says to him, “Your sins are forgiven.� The Pharisees are incensed and say, “Only God can forgive sins.� Jesus replies that he has the authority to forgive sins. Therefore, he’s saying that he is God.

In John 8:58, Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I AM.� “I AM� is a name that Yahweh gave himself in Ex. 3:14. It refers to the eternality of God -- that he was and is and will be. The present participle makes his existence ongoing. That Jesus used the title of himself means that he was claiming to be eternal God, having always existed. The fact that the people picked up rocks to stone him shows that they knew he was calling himself God because stoning someone to death was what one did with a blasphemer (Lev. 24:16).

https://www.compellingtruth.org/Jesus-I-AM.html

A third indication that Jesus thought of himself as God rests in the fact that he allowed people to worship him. When Thomas called him “My Lord and my God� (John 20:28), Jesus did not correct him. He allowed people to worship him many times (See Matt. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38).

And then there’s Jesus’ use of the title “Son of Man� to describe himself. He is referring to the divine figure in Dan. 7:13-14. The High Priest recognizes he is claiming to be God and declares him guilty of blasphemy for doing so. For more read here:

https://www.bethinking.org/jesus/jesus-the-son-of-man

The title “Son of God� would also have been understood as a claim to be God. In the Ancient Near East, “son of� meant “a likeness of nature and equality of being� according to Charles Ryrie in Basic Theology. In John 19:7, the Jews insisted that Christ must die because he claimed to be the Son of God, meaning that he was claiming to be divine.

Theologian Millard Erickson, in his book Christian Theology, notes that Jesus says of himself, “The Son of Man will send HIS angels and they will gather out of HIS kingdom all causes of sin and evildoers� (Matt. 13:41). He notes that, given that angels and the kingdom are both said to belong to God (Matt. 13:41, for example), and given that Jesus called them his own, it’s obvious that Jesus is saying that he is God.

Additionally, there’s the fact that Jesus gave himself the same authority as Scripture. In the Old Testament, prophets would speak for God, saying, “And the Word of the Lord came to me.� But Jesus says, “You have heard it said . . . but I say to you . . . . (Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28).“ In other words, Jesus wasn’t speaking on behalf of God. He WAS God, God Incarnate. See here:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/deityofx.html

Given all of that, what did Jesus mean when he said the Father was greater than he was? He wasn’t referring to his essence, but to his position. In his position on earth, he had to humble himself (as stated in Phil. 2:7, 8), divesting himself of his divine rights, to live as a man. In respect to that, he was in a lower position than God the Father.

From JW.org, we read:

Jesus’ early followers did not view him as being equal to Almighty God. For example, the apostle Paul wrote that after Jesus was resurrected, God “exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position.� Obviously, Paul did not believe that Jesus was Almighty God. Otherwise, how could God exalt Jesus to a superior position? —Philippians 2:9.

My response:

The problem here lies in the fact that the verse has been taken out of context. It’s imperative that people read things in context. This statement comes from The Hymn to Christ in Philippians 2:6-11. That hymn speaks of Christ in his pre-Incarnate state, his Incarnation, and his exaltation AFTER his Incarnation. That’s the key. God raises Christ from his lowly position on earth and exalts him in heaven for having come to earth and for having died for our sins.

And Paul did indeed believe Jesus was God as he called him both God and Saviour in Titus 2:13.

There are a series of videos of discussions about Jesus here for those who prefer to listen rather than read:

https://voice.dts.edu/tablepodcast/who-is-jesus/

Back to JW.org where we read the following:

Since all created things had a beginning, there was a time when God was alone. Countless ages ago, however, God became a Creator. Who was his first creation? The last book of the Bible identifies Jesus as “the beginning of the creation by God.� (Revelation 3:14) Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation.� That is so “because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible.� (Colossians 1:15, 16) Yes, Jesus was the only one directly created by God himself. Therefore, he is called God’s “only-begotten Son.� (John 3:16) The firstborn Son also bears the title “the Word.� (John 1:14) Why? Because before being born as a human, he served in heaven as one who spoke for God.

My response:

In Rev. 3:14, the word that the JWs understand as “beginning� is “arche� in Greek. It can be translated that way, but as Arndt and Gingrich noted in their Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, it means “first cause.� For that reason, the word used here means the “origin� or “source� of God’s creation. It does NOT mean that Christ was the first creation of God. It means he was the origin of the creation.

The word “arche� is used several other times in the Book of Revelation to refer to God as the beginning and the end (Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13). We certainly don’t understand God to be a created being. So why use the word to mean that of Jesus? And given that Jesus is also called the beginning and the end (alpha and omega; Rev. 22:13), that represents one more item of proof that he is divine and always has been.

Secondly, “arche� is also used to mean “ruler� (see 1 Cor. 15:24, Eph.1:21, Col. 2:16). Therefore, the word carries a double meaning re: Jesus. He has authority over creation.

The JWs also misinterpret Col. 1:15, 16. When Paul calls Jesus the “firstborn�, he isn’t referring to the first-created being. The word Paul uses is “prototokos� which means “the first in rank, preeminence, supremacy or sovereignty�. The Greek word meaning the first to be born is “protoktisis�. Paul would have used that word if he meant that Jesus was the first created being. See here:

http://biblehub.com/str/greek/4416.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/2937.htm

Look at it this way: In Psalm 89:27, David is called the first-born. But we know he was the eighth of Jesse’s sons. So it couldn’t be referring to his birth order. It was referring to his pre-eminence as the King of Israel, greater than any other king on earth. The same applies to Isaac who is called the first-born and we know his brother, Ishmael was 13 years older. It means unique, favoured, specially blessed.

And if we read further in Colossians, we see that in v. 18 of the first chapter, Jesus is called the head – which further indicates that we are talking about position, not order of creation.

Then there’s the phrase “only begotten Son�. Again, we go to the Greek and see that it comes from the word “monogenes� which means “the only one of his kind�. In other words, it means that Jesus is unique. It does not mean that he was a created being. And given that he calls himself “I AM�, meaning that he has always existed, we can see that he definitely is not a created being, but the eternal God.
https://www.compellingtruth.org/only-begotten-son.html

https://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html

There is so much more I could write, but this post is getting overly long, like the one on the Holy Spirit, so I will stop here. I hope to address the topic of the Trinity itself as well in the near future.

One last link:

http://bib.irr.org/biblical-basis-of-do ... christ-god

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Jehovah Witnesses

Post #2

Post by Falling Light 101 »


I know that The Jehovah Witnesses Believers have claimed in many different ways and methods of how that Yahoshua Christ is returning back to the earth somehow in some manner.

Jehovah Witness believers declared that The Lord’s Second Coming was set for the year 1914. It was later narrowed down to Later in October of that year.

1880 — “We need not here repeat the evidences that the seventh trump began its sounding in 1840 and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of the times of the Gentiles in 1914. � (Zion’s Watchtower, November 1880, page 1)

1888 — “… the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in 1914… at that date the Kingdom of God… will obtain full, universal control… and it will then be set up, or firmly established, in the earth on the ruins of the present institutions.� (The Time is at Hand, 1888, pp. 76-77)

1889 — “… the setting up of the Kingdom of God has already begun… and the battle of the great day of God Almighty (Revelation 16:14) which will end in 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced. Remember that… the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of ‘Christendom,’ so-called, must be expected to immediately follow.� (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 2, 1889, pp. 101 and 245)

1894 — “We see no reason for changing the figures — nor would we change them if we could. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date of the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.� (Watchtower, July 15, 1894, p. 266)

1897 — “Complete destruction of ‘the powers that be’ of ‘this present evil world’ — political, financial, ecclesiastical — [will occur] about the close of the ‘time of the Gentiles’ in October 1914.� (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 4, 1897, p. 622)

1902 — “In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of 1914.� (The Time is at Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99) Note:

this same statement was contained in the 1908 edition of the same book.
1904 — “According to our expectations, the stress of the great time of trouble will be on us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912, culminating with the end of the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ in 1914.� (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 6, 1904, p. 579)

I believe that The Bible is Gods word and I know that many Jehovah Witness Believers have the best of intentions but I am really not sure what Jehovah Witnesses are going to neXt predict about the end times."

I can see that Jehovah Witness believers can look around and see the world is falling apart and proclaim that the world is coming to an ending of its gift of salvation and that the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914.

But the only thing that I can not understand is why Jehovah Witnesses believers think that things are any worse than they were 2000 years ago ?

I believe that the world could go on for another 2000 years and then Yahoshua will return to take His bride Home to heaven. I just think that things have not gotten any worse or any more evil than it was since the very creation of the Angels and the Garden Of Eden.

A third of the Angels went to war in heaven and fell. Cain murdered His little brother violently and savagely and brutally. Adam and Eve sinned and disrupted the entire race of all of humanity into a death spiral to the pits of hell.

What has changed since then ? I don't get it... It is because there is a higher population of people behaving like the Angels and like the First family created ?


It just seems that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God was accomplished by the end of 1914 and the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914,

So what are Jehovah witnesses looking for or eXpecting from Jehovah today?
I don't know what they are really saying but I'm sure it would be interesting to imagine.

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Post #3

Post by Bust Nak »

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Re: JWs and Jesus Christ

Post #4

Post by 1213 »

Overcomer wrote: And Jesus did not deny it because he was, indeed, declaring himself to be God.
Or he just didn’t see any good reason to deny it, because people didn’t listen him anyway. Like they don’t listen him even today, about what he tells in the Bible.
Overcomer wrote:Take a look at Mark 2:1-11. Four men bring a paralytic on a mat. Jesus says to him, “Your sins are forgiven.� The Pharisees are incensed and say, “Only God can forgive sins.� Jesus replies that he has the authority to forgive sins. Therefore, he’s saying that he is God.
Also disciples of Jesus have right to forgive sins.

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Does that mean I am God also?
Overcomer wrote:In John 8:58, Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I AM.� “I AM� is a name that Yahweh gave himself in Ex. 3:14. It refers to the eternality of God -- that he was and is and will be. The present participle makes his existence ongoing.
Also Paul says “I am� in the Bible, does it mean Paul is God?
Overcomer wrote:A third indication that Jesus thought of himself as God rests in the fact that he allowed people to worship him. When Thomas called him “My Lord and my God� (John 20:28), Jesus did not correct him. He allowed people to worship him many times (See Matt. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38).
According to Jesus, God lives in him. So, when Jesus was on earth, God was also there and it could be said “My Lord (King) and my God�, they both were there. I think this should be understood similarly as: when country has a president, the president makes deals in the name of the country. He is not himself the true country, but represents it. Similarly, Jesus is the great ambassador of God and makes deal in the name of God. It doesn’t mean president is the country, or that Jesus is the only true God.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5
Overcomer wrote:The title “Son of God� would also have been understood as a claim to be God. In the Ancient Near East, “son of� meant “a likeness of nature and equality of being� according to Charles Ryrie in Basic Theology. In John 19:7, the Jews insisted that Christ must die because he claimed to be the Son of God, meaning that he was claiming to be divine.
In the OT, there is many that are called son of God, shouldn’t be any problem for Jews.

God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
Psalms 82:1

I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."
Psalms 82:6-7

Now it happened on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, that Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6

It happened, when men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them, that God's sons saw that men's daughters were beautiful, and they took for themselves wives of all that they chose.
Genesis 6:1-2
Overcomer wrote:And Paul did indeed believe Jesus was God as he called him both God and Saviour in Titus 2:13.

Paul says also:

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

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Re: JWs and Jesus Christ

Post #5

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 1 by Overcomer]
Jesus’ opposers accused him of making himself equal to God. (John 5:18; 10:30-33) However, Jesus never claimed to be on the same level as Almighty God. He said: “The Father is greater than I am.�—John 14:28.

And yet this is exactly what that means. The father is greater than the very same I AM of the old testament. I AM is a title that indicates existence; eternal existence. The bible doesn't necessarily equate that with God. In fact, it doesn't equate it with God, but with Christ. God is the origin of becoming, not the means of being.


Actually, Jesus DID claim to be God – many times and in several ways. That’s why the Pharisees, scribes, and Sadducees accused him of blasphemy.
I could make the same argument by saying Jesus broke the law-many times and in several ways. That's why the Pharisees, scribes, and Sadducees accused him. If that's the case then Jesus wasn't a perfect sacrifice, was he? Nope. You see the problem? Just because the scribes and Pharisees assume something to be true, doesn't make it so. In fact, a number of Jewish scholars have pointed out that the scribes and Pharisees described in the gospel narratives are LIARS. Lo and behold, Jesus makes the exact same claim.
That’s what blasphemy was – declaring one’s self to be God.
And yet you ignore the fact that it is the scribes and Pharisees who are making this declaration against Jesus.
John 10:33 reads, “You, a mere man, claim to be God.� And Jesus did not deny it
He most certainly did deny the false accusation levied against him.

Here's what the text states:
because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
The father is God. That's explicitly what the texts state. He isn't saying he's the father. He's saying he is in the father, and the father in him.
because he was, indeed, declaring himself to be God.
That is nothing close to confirming what you think Jesus claiming himself to be God. The text indicates that Jesus is in no way agreeing with their accusations. You're clearly claiming that he agrees with their assessment. How could the son of God be God when the judges that are referred to as "God" aren't God????

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Re: JWs and Jesus Christ

Post #6

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 1 by Overcomer]
Take a look at Mark 2:1-11. Four men bring a paralytic on a mat. Jesus says to him, “Your sins are forgiven.� The Pharisees are incensed and say, “Only God can forgive sins.�
And you believe the exact same people that Jesus has clearly stated are '"liars"???
Jesus replies that he has the authority to forgive sins. Therefore, he’s saying that he is God.
Non sequitur. "Those who sins you retain, they are retained. Those who's sins you release, they are released." Sorry, but anyone can forgive sins, and it doesn't make anyone who forgives sins God.

Jesus even points out that those who can't forgive sin, aren't going to be forgiven.

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Re: JWs and Jesus Christ

Post #7

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 1 by Overcomer]
We certainly don’t understand God to be a created being. So why use the word to mean that of Jesus?
Because he is a created being. The texts clearly indicate that he "became flesh". He entered into the created world as a created being; a human being to be precise.

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Re: JWs and Jesus Christ

Post #8

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 1 by Overcomer]
The title “Son of God� would also have been understood as a claim to be God.
And yet the bible itself describes "the sons of God" transgressing God's command and creating the "geber" or "men of renown". Then in Job we see the "sons of God and Satan along with them" Satan is also a son of God. Then we have Luke's genealogy which indicates that Adam is also a "son of God" So we've got quite a vast and diverse pantheon of gods don't we? Yep, and no one in that culture would have assumed or thought that any of these gods were equal with God.

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Re: JWs and Jesus Christ

Post #9

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 5 by shnarkle]
Just because the scribes and Pharisees assume something to be true, doesn't make it so.

In fact, a number of Jewish scholars have pointed out that the scribes and Pharisees described in the gospel narratives are LIARS.

Lo and behold, Jesus makes the exact same claim.
Liars in regard to what?

Where do these Jewish scholars stand concerning Jesus as Messiah, Savior, and the promised son of David?

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Re: JWs and Jesus Christ

Post #10

Post by Checkpoint »

shnarkle wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Overcomer]
We certainly don’t understand God to be a created being. So why use the word to mean that of Jesus?
You explained
Because he is a created being. The texts clearly indicate that he "became flesh". He entered into the created world as a created being; a human being to be precise.
As I understand their view, JWs claim he was the first created being, a god but not God.

In your opinion or understanding, what was "he" before becoming a created being?

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