Here is a theory about God everyone can agree on and prove.
God died sometime after 1480, he was slain by the combined forces of Death and Satan, whom he threatened to overcome.
These two powerful and subtle forces ensured God was the cause of his own destruction. He never even saw it coming.
Now, why we can all agree on this is:
1. There have been no miracles since Joan of Arc.
2. We can now all agree God does not exist.
3. Death still persists, unvanquished.
4. Evil still exists.
5. This fits all available data.
Am I wrong?
A theory about God everyone can agree on
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- Willum
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Re: A theory about God everyone can agree on
Post #41[Replying to post 40 by William]
I can't provide a reference for a negative, of course.
Anyway you asked for references, and I'll discuss anything germane, so long as I understand it is germane or you have the patience to make me understand it is germane. Which may require a reference.
Well, the site is "Debating Christianity," after all, I am willing to discuss a broad scope, but a topic is written for boundaries, otherwise we'd be discussing chaos.I understand. Christianity is the bigger fish to fry because it is an establish organised religion and not a cult.
I can't provide a reference for a negative, of course.
Anyway you asked for references, and I'll discuss anything germane, so long as I understand it is germane or you have the patience to make me understand it is germane. Which may require a reference.
Re: thanks to modern atheistic science, suffering is lesseni
Post #42Sure she could win battles. If Joan had been a man a few years older, would you then argue that those victories were humanly impossible? I think we can both agree that Alexander the Great used his very human abilities to win his battles. I assume you would not invoke any miracles to explain his victories. So why invoke miracles for Joan of Arc's victories?Willum wrote: [Replying to post 15 by Jagella]
I'll just invoke wiki, look at the claims, and ask, "is there any reasonable way a teenager could reverse the tides of war so badly lost, without some alien or miraculous intelligence guiding her?"
It's because she was a woman!
That's right. We believe women cannot do the things men do, and when they defy our beliefs, we cannot give them credit but insist that they needed miracles.
At what age are miracles no longer necessary to win battles? If Joan had reached twenty years of age, could she have then won battles without miracles assuming she had a sex-change operation?My mind is open though, but one need explain how a teenager could do this, sans some kind of miracle, then have a good basis for believing it.
Oh sure. We men can get by on our own innate abilities accomplishing great deeds by virtue of our genitals, but women need a god to do what we do all the time.We don't have claims of insanity, we don't have any hoaxes being claimed.
In this case the most likely alternative is the dead God hypothesis.
As far as I'm concerned TIMITS cannot be dead because he never lived to begin with. If he did die, then I see nothing special about 1480. TIMITS looks every bit as dead prior to 1480 as after.Am I arguing that you (or anyone else) should prove God didn't die in 1480? Yes, we have a great deal of evidence according to religious people on one side of 1480, none on the other.
Or provide a better hypothesis.
The last "proof" was Joan. Since then we have learned many things that demonstrate God is now inert, at least.
I'm not sure if anybody can "show God wasn't made a victim of his own power by his formidable enemies." But we cannot prove that The Road Runner wasn't made a victim of his own power by his formidable enemies either.Is it possible to show God wasn't made a victim of his own power by his formidable enemies?
So why worry about it?
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Re: thanks to modern atheistic science, suffering is lesseni
Post #43[Replying to post 42 by Jagella]
Well, I already conceded Joan of Arc as not being necessary to the discussion, except that she does seem to be the last record of actual miracles.
If you insist she is not, this moves God's last verifiable actions to the prophets themselves.
So God dies sometime after 70CE or so.
He is still demonstrably dead. Unless it can be shown otherwise.
Again, the premise of the OP is to concede both sides:
Judeo-Christians concede not a hide nor hair of God has been seen in 300-2000 years.
Non-JC must admit they were not there to confirm or deny Jesus, Moses - et&al.. Remember, you don't really need more than one source if it is true. How many sources for F = ma for example.
Now, it seems a reasonable conclusion, unless it can be shown otherwise.
Well, I already conceded Joan of Arc as not being necessary to the discussion, except that she does seem to be the last record of actual miracles.
If you insist she is not, this moves God's last verifiable actions to the prophets themselves.
So God dies sometime after 70CE or so.
He is still demonstrably dead. Unless it can be shown otherwise.
Again, the premise of the OP is to concede both sides:
Judeo-Christians concede not a hide nor hair of God has been seen in 300-2000 years.
Non-JC must admit they were not there to confirm or deny Jesus, Moses - et&al.. Remember, you don't really need more than one source if it is true. How many sources for F = ma for example.
Now, it seems a reasonable conclusion, unless it can be shown otherwise.
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Post #44
So we agree then?:
God died/no longer exists?
We can concede he performed miracle and whatnots, be cause we weren't there to see he did not, but we must acknowledge that he has not performed any miracles, or shown himself since he was slain.
Therefore everyone can agree that God was slain 500-2000 years ago?
Still asking for dissenting facts.
God died/no longer exists?
We can concede he performed miracle and whatnots, be cause we weren't there to see he did not, but we must acknowledge that he has not performed any miracles, or shown himself since he was slain.
Therefore everyone can agree that God was slain 500-2000 years ago?
Still asking for dissenting facts.
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Post #45
So yet another data point(s), suggesting God is no longer extant, applies to all as well:
The Jewish Saviour can no longer come, because the necessary requirements for its Saviour have been destroyed, like God, and because God was unable to protect them.
In a similar way, it is also why Jesus did not return soon.
Really, is there a single thing about this theory that it does not explain?
The Jewish Saviour can no longer come, because the necessary requirements for its Saviour have been destroyed, like God, and because God was unable to protect them.
In a similar way, it is also why Jesus did not return soon.
Really, is there a single thing about this theory that it does not explain?
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Re: A theory about God everyone can agree on
Post #46So did I. There are many miracles claimed since those medival dates, not least the Fatima event, claimed as the best verified miracle ever. But that (I discovered) was a sham and a fraud; A triple sham and fraud in fact, first by the girl involved, secondly by the local church, using it as propaganda against the spread of local Bolshevism, and finally by the Vatican, turning it into a cult of the 'Immaculate conception'.PinSeeker wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:43 pmLOL!!!Willum wrote: Here is a theory about God everyone can agree on and prove.
God died sometime after 1480, he was slain by the combined forces of Death and Satan, whom he threatened to overcome.
These two powerful and subtle forces ensured God was the cause of his own destruction. He never even saw it coming.
Now, why we can all agree on this is:
1. There have been no miracles since Joan of Arc.
2. We can now all agree God does not exist.
3. Death still persists, unvanquished.
4. Evil still exists.
5. This fits all available data.
Am I wrong?
The miracles prior to that are similarly open to doubt and question.
- We_Are_VENOM
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Re: A theory about God everyone can agree on
Post #47Unverifiable claim.
Wow, we cant even make it past P1 without your argument unraveling.
And this does not follow even if P1 was true.2. We can now all agree God does not exist.
Tsk tsk.
Smh. Just a bad argument. What else needs to be said.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!
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Re: A theory about God everyone can agree on
Post #48[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #47]
No verification of something that did not happen, is perfect evidence.
Missed that one in history class, huh?
No verification of something that did not happen, is perfect evidence.
Missed that one in history class, huh?
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
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Re: A theory about God everyone can agree on
Post #49Moderator Comment
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Re: A theory about God everyone can agree on
Post #50[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #47]
No verification of something that did not happen, is perfect evidence.
Simply show the last miracle, if Joan is wrong.
Now also show why death and evil still exists if Jesus and God defeated them.
It would be your refutation that has issues, not the OP, which, if you read other responses, you would see, has been shown to have further more profound impacts than it set out to establish.
Sorry, maybe your god did exist, but doesn't now.
It was prophesied that your god would be the first and last.
He died last.
No verification of something that did not happen, is perfect evidence.
Simply show the last miracle, if Joan is wrong.
Now also show why death and evil still exists if Jesus and God defeated them.
It would be your refutation that has issues, not the OP, which, if you read other responses, you would see, has been shown to have further more profound impacts than it set out to establish.
Sorry, maybe your god did exist, but doesn't now.
It was prophesied that your god would be the first and last.
He died last.