A theory about God everyone can agree on

[Willum]

Here is a theory about God everyone can agree on and prove.

God died sometime after 1480, he was slain by the combined forces of Death and Satan, whom he threatened to overcome.

These two powerful and subtle forces ensured God was the cause of his own destruction. He never even saw it coming.

Now, why we can all agree on this is:
1. There have been no miracles since Joan of Arc.
2. We can now all agree God does not exist.
3. Death still persists, unvanquished.
4. Evil still exists.
5. This fits all available data.

Am I wrong?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 10 by Jagella]

(You don't need to quote my entire post)

Nay, military strategy is not intuitive, certainly not for armies. There is a great deal involved.
I can't say much about the stake - it may be she allowed her own ego to trump God's word, and so she fell. Just as God could never suspect his own power could be used to destroy him.*

We can't really know. Even her biography is light on the subject.

This case seems best for a miracle, and in want of definitive evidence, a miracle is a reasonable solution.

Of course another answer might be some experienced general was whispering in her ear, or any number of solutions, but Joan serves as a good dividing line for the topic.

It isn't graven in stone.

* = Kind of clever really, an all powerful entity can do anything, even kill itself apparently.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 8 by PinSeeker]

While I agree that to posit such a scenario is silly and on a par with the story of Peter Pan, your own beliefs are much like Willum's theory. So why should I laugh at Willum's story and take your beliefs seriously?

Because he didn't mean it in a serious light. He meant it in a humorous light, albeit probably dark humor, and I found it funny in the sense that he meant it. It's okay to laugh when somebody makes a funny, Jagella.

Nah. I say laugh whenever something is dumb enough to laugh at.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 11 by Willum]

This case seems best for a miracle, and in want of definitive evidence, a miracle is a reasonable solution.

We should define our terms. What is a "miracle"?

Amazing and unlikely things happen all the time. The Eagles won the Super Bowl.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 13 by Jagella]

Miracle - what Jean d'Arc was able to do, an uneducated teen leading a defeated nation to victory with knowledge she couldn't have, and coupled by events that had no reason to occur.

Actually, it is not that much of a sticking point, but your argument "weird stuff happens all the time," is weak enough to be dismissed.

A miracle is sufficient for purposes of discussion. It provides a good definition for when God died. There were miracles before, none after.

If you wish to dispute Jean, come back with some good reasons, not simply generalizations.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 13 by Jagella]

Miracle - what Jean d'Arc was able to do, an uneducated teen leading a defeated nation to victory with knowledge she couldn't have, and coupled by events that had no reason to occur.

Actually, it is not that much of a sticking point, but your argument "weird stuff happens all the time," is weak enough to be dismissed.

A miracle is sufficient for purposes of discussion. It provides a good definition for when God died. There were miracles before, none after.

If you wish to dispute Jean, come back with some good reasons, not simply generalizations.

Well, I'm not sure what you want me to do. Do I have the burden to demonstrate that Joan didn't hear voices from TIMITS or get help from him and that TIMITS didn't die in 1480? That's a tall order! Maybe I'd be better off just accepting what you have to say.

Your arguing that Joan of Arc didn't have the knowledge and ability to lead the French into victory in battle and that her victory then must be a miracle reminds me of what Muslims argue for the Quran. They say the Quran is a miraculous book because Muhammad was illiterate and could not have written it. But if Muhammad wrote the Quran, then his doing so demonstrated that he wasn't illiterate!

The same goes for Joan of Arc. Her leading forces into victory in battle demonstrates that she did have the knowledge and ability to do so. It is amazing I suppose, but I see no reason to posit TIMITS to explain it.

So those are some of my reasons for doubting that Joan of Arc was hearing the voice of TIMITS or receiving his help. You may post your counter-generalizations.

[PinSeeker]

I say laugh whenever something is dumb enough to laugh at.

You mean whenever you think something is dumb enough to laugh at. Well, now, that's against board rules, as far as I know. In addition to being an ass. Which we can all be from time to time, but of course that doesn't make it okay or acceptable. But yeah, I getcha.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 15 by Jagella]

I'll just invoke wiki, look at the claims, and ask, "is there any reasonable way a teenager could reverse the tides of war so badly lost, without some alien or miraculous intelligence guiding her?"
My mind is open though, but one need explain how a teenager could do this, sans some kind of miracle, then have a good basis for believing it.

We don't have claims of insanity, we don't have any hoaxes being claimed.
In this case the most likely alternative is the dead God hypothesis.

Am I arguing that you (or anyone else) should prove God didn't die in 1480? Yes, we have a great deal of evidence according to religious people on one side of 1480, none on the other.
Or provide a better hypothesis.

The last "proof" was Joan. Since then we have learned many things that demonstrate God is now inert, at least.

But the topic isn't really about Joan, it is about being able to show God still lives.
Is it possible to show God wasn't made a victim of his own power by his formidable enemies?

[PinSeeker]

Weird things, or extraordinarily heroic things, or both happen quite a bit, but that doesn't qualify them as miracles. Only God performs -- performed, actually (past tense), because there is no need for them since the days of Jesus; God has given us all we need in His Word and His Spirit -- miracles. What Joan of Arc did was not a miracle. Mere human beings can't work miracles these days. Or... they could, if God were to ordain it, but there is no need for Him to do that.

So, for whoever here is arguing that what Joan of Arc did was not a miracle, I agree. Although maybe not with every jot and tittle of your reasoning (or "reasoning," as the case may be).

[Willum]

[Replying to post 18 by PinSeeker]

Since you don't believe in Joan, I'll say we can agree miracles occurred in the time of the prophets, and in the spirit of compromise, I will allow Satan and Death killed God sometime after then.

Since no one can get over the Jean thing. The point is he was slain, definitely after 1480, but anytime after the prophets.

Now, can anyone show differently?

[PinSeeker]

I'll just invoke wiki, look at the claims, and ask, "is there any reasonable way a teenager could reverse the tides of war so badly lost, without some alien or miraculous intelligence guiding her?"

God is certainly in control of all things, Willum. Nothing happens without Him causing or allowing -- through human action or inaction -- it to happen. But that doesn't necessarily mean a miracle has occurred. In the Old Testament, we read many times how God "gave them over into (fill in the blank)'s hand," but that doesn't indicate any miracle occurring. We could apply this just as well, even, to the writing, assembling, and maintaining to the present day of the Bible. Not a miracle. But God is in charge, causing or allowing -- through human action or inaction -- it to happen.

My mind is open though, but one need explain how a teenager could do this, sans some kind of miracle, then have a good basis for believing it.

What difference does age make? None, really. It may make it harder (even much, much harder to fathom), but that doesn't mean anything.

Am I arguing that you (or anyone else) should prove God didn't die in 1480? The last "proof" was Joan. Since then we have learned many things that demonstrate God is now inert, at least.

Oh, no. God has never been "inert." His works may be harder to see these days, but that doesn't mean He's not every bit as active as He ever was. Maybe in different ways, but still active.

But the topic isn't really about Joan, it is about being able to show God still lives.

Gotcha. So how do you show that to the blind? You can share it, and hope they are given sight at some point, but you can't do that.