Does Christianity enhance your mental health?

[Jagella]

In an older thread, The Mental-Illness Theory of Religion, I received the following response:

Second, in response to historia you wrote:

Some claim religious belief can be beneficial mentally, and others have come to the opposite conclusion

The first part of that statement is clearly true. In Psychology Today psychologist Rob Whitley wrote:
“The amassed research indicates that higher levels of religious belief and practice (known in social science as “religiosity�) is associated with better mental health.�

Question for Debate:In what ways has your Christian faith and practice improved your mental health?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 40 by Tart]

Ya so I believe Jesus demonstrated the righteousness of God by laying down his life on the cross for the forgiveness of sinners.

A statement I find absurd, not least of which is because you also happen to believe God and Jesus are sitting together, next to each other, in heaven right now, all fine and dandy. It's not much of a sacrifice of a life when Jesus respawns. If I play an online shooter and save my team-mate from an enemy's shots, he's not going to praise me for it or call me righteous because within a minute, my character will be right back in the action.

i dont even believe in the ideology of the Southern Baptist

I don't think I mentioned Southern Baptists, so I don't know why you're talking about them. If one of the people in the videos I posted are SBs, then I didn't know that.

If I believed that they were right, you could perhaps question me about their morality, but I dont believe in their methodologies

Again, I didn't mention SBs and so I'm not focusing on them and their methodologies. I'm talking about this mindset you have that if someone asserts that God/Jesus commanded them to kill that they just have to be wrong, that the "real" Jesus is Gentle Jesus, Meek and Mild.

If this is a question of if their teachings are aligned with Christianity,

My post is on what Christianity even is, whether one can simply automatically dismiss someone who does violence while calling Jesus/God their Lord, what the real or default Christianity is.

but you specifically say that isnt the question, and assert their teachings align with Christianity

No I did not, since not once did I refer to Southern Baptists. I am talking about YOU.

Christ is the pinnacle of righteousness that I look to for guidance...

The picture of Christ you have in your mind, this Gentle Jesus Meek and Mild you mean. Whether this Gentle Jesus matches the Real Jesus (if ever there was one 2,000 years ago) is still up in the air, still up for debate and research.

[Tart]

[Replying to post 40 by Tart]

Ya so I believe Jesus demonstrated the righteousness of God by laying down his life on the cross for the forgiveness of sinners.

A statement I find absurd, not least of which is because you also happen to believe God and Jesus are sitting together, next to each other, in heaven right now, all fine and dandy. It's not much of a sacrifice of a life when Jesus respawns. If I play an online shooter and save my team-mate from an enemy's shots, he's not going to praise me for it or call me righteous because within a minute, my character will be right back in the action.

i dont even believe in the ideology of the Southern Baptist

I don't think I mentioned Southern Baptists, so I don't know why you're talking about them. If one of the people in the videos I posted are SBs, then I didn't know that.

If I believed that they were right, you could perhaps question me about their morality, but I dont believe in their methodologies

Again, I didn't mention SBs and so I'm not focusing on them and their methodologies. I'm talking about this mindset you have that if someone asserts that God/Jesus commanded them to kill that they just have to be wrong, that the "real" Jesus is Gentle Jesus, Meek and Mild.

If this is a question of if their teachings are aligned with Christianity,

My post is on what Christianity even is, whether one can simply automatically dismiss someone who does violence while calling Jesus/God their Lord, what the real or default Christianity is.

but you specifically say that isnt the question, and assert their teachings align with Christianity

No I did not, since not once did I refer to Southern Baptists. I am talking about YOU.

Christ is the pinnacle of righteousness that I look to for guidance...

The picture of Christ you have in your mind, this Gentle Jesus Meek and Mild you mean. Whether this Gentle Jesus matches the Real Jesus (if ever there was one 2,000 years ago) is still up in the air, still up for debate and research.

Well maybe you should research it more then... Iv read the New Testament like 4 times and i think it is abundantly clear... Christianity is about living with the spirit.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Christ came and died in submission to God's will. Even when His followers tried to fight back with the sword, and perhaps they could have been victorious in battle, Jesus said:

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52 “Put your sword back in its place,� Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?�

Jesus is the cornerstone of Christianity, and His sacrifice on the cross was a lesson to all of us. The scripture says we should be obedient to Jesus, even to a death like His... And that righteousness is living faithfully, despite any persecution, and despite even death... Nearly all the Disciples died, by submitting to the authorities (which by the way, were not Christian authorities, they were Pagan authorities of Rome).

I mean, the abundance of evidence is on this side.... But people like to twist things for their own purposes...

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 42 by Tart]

Well maybe you should research it more then... Iv read the New Testament like 4 times and i think it is abundantly clear... Christianity is about living with the spirit.

Pretend you're in the year 100 BC, and you're talking to a Jew. He tells you about previous Jews, like Joshua, who were told by God to kill the enemies of Israel. Perhaps this Jew you're talking to quotes to you Numbers 21

"When the Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that Israel was coming along the road to Atharim, he attacked the Israelites and captured some of them. 2 Then Israel made this vow to the Lord: “If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy[a] their cities.� 3 The Lord listened to Israel’s plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place was named Hormah."

What I want to ask you is this: Are you going to say to this Jew, that his ancestor(s) were NOT in communion with God, or hearing or obeying God, or worshipping God because according to you and according to what you read in the New Testament,
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. "
You have your view of God, the Jew has his view of God, both of you are pulling verses from your respective holy books. Why is it that when you talk to me (Tart talking to rikuo), that the real default God just has to be Gentle Jesus, Meek and Mild, and the real default God cannot be the violent God who blessed Israeli conquests and massacres?
Step outside yourself for a moment. I'm not saying God most definitely is, by default, the warlord violent God of the Jew you're hypothetically talking to. I'm saying...he could be. I can't rule it out. I don't see a reason to automatically go with Gentle Jesus Meek and Mild, simply because he just happens to apparently be all these nice things like love and peace.
I have to follow the evidence where it leads, and if it happens to lead to a warlord God? So be it. If it happens to lead to Gentle Jesus? So be it. But I cannot have in my mind your mindset that if someone thinks God commands violence...then they're just wrong.
I can't be biased toward either position. I'd love it if there was a real God, and this real God were actually love and peace...but I can't let my own desires sway me away from where the evidence may point to.
Do you think I somehow desire for there to be a real God who is violent?

Iv read the New Testament like 4 times and i think it is abundantly clear

I've lost count of the number of times I've read the NT and I think it anything but clear. One nickname I give for the Bible is the Big Book of Multiple Choice.

Christ came and died in submission to God's will. Even when His followers tried to fight back with the sword, and perhaps they could have been victorious in battle, Jesus said:

I know these verses. In this conversation, there's no point in quoting Bible verses to me, because I already know them. I know they exist, I know they're there. What you take away from them is what Tart takes away, not what is automatically the real default Christianity.
I've said it before and I'll say it again here - I cannot blame Christians who are violent, who promote violence, and cite the Bible as their justification. They could say things like Christ and God are one (whether literally or one in purpose) and then have a chain of logic including the fact that in the Old Testament, God the Father was violent, commanded violence. So if GtF was all about violence and conquest...so too must Jesus, they might say. How could God the Son be at odds with God the Father?

Jesus is the cornerstone of Christianity, and His sacrifice on the cross was a lesson to all of us. The scripture says we should be obedient to Jesus, even to a death like His

Even potentially to fighting the enemies of Israel? So that God's promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob could be actualised?

And that righteousness is living faithfully, despite any persecution, and despite even death... Nearly all the Disciples died, by submitting to the authorities (which by the way, were not Christian authorities, they were Pagan authorities of Rome).

All you're doing is repeating what Tart believes. I get it, this is what you believe, I'm not going to deny that...but what you are not doing is showing that what Tart believes is the real default Christianity, that those who disagree or who have different mindsets are automatically wrong.
Every Christian who disagrees with you can pull Bible verses to support themselves.

[Tart]

[Replying to post 42 by Tart]

Well maybe you should research it more then... Iv read the New Testament like 4 times and i think it is abundantly clear... Christianity is about living with the spirit.

Pretend you're in the year 100 BC, and you're talking to a Jew. He tells you about previous Jews, like Joshua, who were told by God to kill the enemies of Israel. Perhaps this Jew you're talking to quotes to you Numbers 21

"When the Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that Israel was coming along the road to Atharim, he attacked the Israelites and captured some of them. 2 Then Israel made this vow to the Lord: “If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy[a] their cities.� 3 The Lord listened to Israel’s plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place was named Hormah."

What I want to ask you is this: Are you going to say to this Jew, that his ancestor(s) were NOT in communion with God, or hearing or obeying God, or worshipping God because according to you and according to what you read in the New Testament,
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. "
You have your view of God, the Jew has his view of God, both of you are pulling verses from your respective holy books. Why is it that when you talk to me (Tart talking to rikuo), that the real default God just has to be Gentle Jesus, Meek and Mild, and the real default God cannot be the violent God who blessed Israeli conquests and massacres?
Step outside yourself for a moment. I'm not saying God most definitely is, by default, the warlord violent God of the Jew you're hypothetically talking to. I'm saying...he could be. I can't rule it out. I don't see a reason to automatically go with Gentle Jesus Meek and Mild, simply because he just happens to apparently be all these nice things like love and peace.
I have to follow the evidence where it leads, and if it happens to lead to a warlord God? So be it. If it happens to lead to Gentle Jesus? So be it. But I cannot have in my mind your mindset that if someone thinks God commands violence...then they're just wrong.
I can't be biased toward either position. I'd love it if there was a real God, and this real God were actually love and peace...but I can't let my own desires sway me away from where the evidence may point to.
Do you think I somehow desire for there to be a real God who is violent?

Ya, i do think you desire to discredit Christianity...... You are doing so right now by debating as if Christianity is immoral... I think this debate gets old...

I mean for example, i personally struggle with anger sometimes... i get mad at people. Specifically at certain people in the church.. Its so easy to harbor resentment, especially when you feel people deserve it.. but it is precisely because I believe in Jesus Christ that I have to come to terms with His teachings. It compels me to forgive, and to not harbor resentment and be angry at people... Even if the people in question dont deserve my forgiveness, and have done nothing to reconcile, and continue to treat me poorly (as i perceive it)...

I mean, people who are wicked, who treat you bad (as you perceive it), people who are unrighteous and deserving of condemnation.... I am compelled to forgive these people, and to not well in anger... Not because of them, or because myself.. Nothing compels me to forgive, get over it, and live spiritually, except my belief in Jesus Christ..

I mean this is just a reality of what being a Christian means to me... To live faithfully, even if you feel you have justification to not live faithfully... Christ compels to submit my life to God... Not for any other persons benefit, but because God wills it....

Iv read the New Testament like 4 times and i think it is abundantly clear

I've lost count of the number of times I've read the NT and I think it anything but clear. One nickname I give for the Bible is the Big Book of Multiple Choice.

Christ came and died in submission to God's will. Even when His followers tried to fight back with the sword, and perhaps they could have been victorious in battle, Jesus said:

I know these verses. In this conversation, there's no point in quoting Bible verses to me, because I already know them. I know they exist, I know they're there. What you take away from them is what Tart takes away, not what is automatically the real default Christianity.
I've said it before and I'll say it again here - I cannot blame Christians who are violent, who promote violence, and cite the Bible as their justification. They could say things like Christ and God are one (whether literally or one in purpose) and then have a chain of logic including the fact that in the Old Testament, God the Father was violent, commanded violence. So if GtF was all about violence and conquest...so too must Jesus, they might say. How could God the Son be at odds with God the Father?

Jesus is the cornerstone of Christianity, and His sacrifice on the cross was a lesson to all of us. The scripture says we should be obedient to Jesus, even to a death like His

Even potentially to fighting the enemies of Israel? So that God's promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob could be actualised?

And that righteousness is living faithfully, despite any persecution, and despite even death... Nearly all the Disciples died, by submitting to the authorities (which by the way, were not Christian authorities, they were Pagan authorities of Rome).

All you're doing is repeating what Tart believes. I get it, this is what you believe, I'm not going to deny that...but what you are not doing is showing that what Tart believes is the real default Christianity, that those who disagree or who have different mindsets are automatically wrong.
Every Christian who disagrees with you can pull Bible verses to support themselves.

Well, that is the way i see it.... Jesus is the pinnacle of righteousness, and denied his own life to save sinners.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 44 by Tart]

You are doing so right now by debating as if Christianity is immoral

A view which I do hold, yes...but I don't say that a Christian who holds that Christianity is moral is wrong, because my view of Christianity is that it's immoral.
Christianity could be moral, I just would like to see evidence of that.

I mean for example, i personally struggle with anger sometimes

We all do.

but it is precisely because I believe in Jesus Christ that I have to come to terms with His teachings. It compels me to forgive, and to not harbor resentment and be angry at people

I'm the opposite. I have found it far easier to forgive, despite Jesus Christ, and am able to handle my own anger issues and other emotional issues far better since I dropped Christianity.
One example of an emotional issue I had that was outright caused by Christianity was the command to follow the Ten Commandments, especially the one to honour thy parents. Back when I was a Christian, this made me miserable and extremely guilt-ridden because I could not do it.
Now I do not feel guilty and miserable because not everyone on this planet, and most especially my parents, deserve my honour and love. People can lose it, and some people have in fact lost mine. My father lost it forever when he raped my sisters.

Even if the people in question dont deserve my forgiveness, and have done nothing to reconcile, and continue to treat me poorly (as i perceive it)...

My father continues to treat me and my family poorly, in that he deceived me, and has not given himself up to the authorities and confessed his crimes. Unlike yourself, I do not just let forgive him for that: if I had evidence that would hold up in court, I would pursue it.

Your method as you outline it here just allows evil to flourish. I once thought like you. I even in my childhood swore an oath of pacifism.
I've since learned how naive that was.

I mean, people who are wicked, who treat you bad (as you perceive it), people who are unrighteous and deserving of condemnation.... I am compelled to forgive these people, and to not well in anger... Not because of them, or because myself.. Nothing compels me to forgive, get over it, and live spiritually, except my belief in Jesus Christ..

What does God do with unrighteous people? Oh yeah, he sends them to hell. He doesn't grant them his grace, his salvation.
Odd how you are now seemingly not on board with that.

Well, that is the way i see it.... Jesus is the pinnacle of righteousness, and denied his own life to save sinners.

So you ultimately have no argument to rebut my own that your interpretation of Christianity does not automatically by necessity have to be the default Christianity, that if others follow a violent Christianity, they're doing it wrong (according to you).

[Tart]

Ok well, i believe in Christianity because I believe Christ is the pinnacle of righteousness, and also the Risen Son of God... I believe forgiveness, and faithfulness is apart of righteousness, and if you think im wrong for believing that, you are entitled to your opinions, but ill sand by that...

[Jagella]

Ya so you guys brought up the murdering of children, and that is what we are talking about... Im not really interested in discussing how you think pro-life is fueling abortion, or people denying people birth control methods, child assistance... Or whatever... That is irrelevant to the conversation... The justification of killing kids.

Again, it was you who brought up the issue of abortion in the context of killing kids. I think it's only fair to give me the opportunity to post my position on that issue.

Im not running from anything. I think God has the right to do as he will, which if God wills destiny like that of Jesus on the cross, God may will the death of all of us in some way...

In other words, anything you believe the Father Of The Sky (FOTS) does is by definition morally right. In that case a father demanding his son die in a horrible suicide is moral for that father to do as long as that father is FOTS.

Yes--I definitely understand what you're saying and what you see as the foundation for your morality.

Jesus is the pinnacle of righteousness, and the foundation of our values today.

So anything Jesus commanded is by definition "the pinnacle of righteousness" and "the foundation of our values today." Have you arrived at this conclusion via Christian faith or did you come to this conclusion by doing research into morality?

Today it's common for people to believe we all have the right to believe whatever we wish without fear of punishment. Did Jesus preach that we have such a right?

Christianity certainly doesn't teach anyone to kill anyone.. In fact they teach against hating anyone...

First, dividing people up the way the Bible does can and has led to killing. Moreover, as I have pointed out repeatedly in this forum, the gospel fable does command hatred. Consider Luke 14:26:

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

So now you know that Christ is quoted as telling his followers to hate their own families, and ignorance is no longer an excuse. Please stop posting what isn't true.

And Christianity tells us to beware of false teachers, especially if they go against the teachings of Christ...

But don't you see how stupid that is? It's self-defeating. If you are to beware of "false teachers," then you should beware of Christ! The command contradicts itself telling you to beware of false teachers and then immediately commands you not to beware of a "teacher."

...how does atheism say anything about a valid foundation for morality and righteousness?

Atheism doesn't say anything, but as an atheist I'm free of barbaric religious beliefs like yours. When Jesus rants that anybody who doesn't believe him will go to hell, then I can tell him to go to hell.

You right, there is no justified violence from God... Christ turned the other cheek...

I don't know what Bible you're reading, but FOTS and Christ are portrayed in the gospel fable as glorifying violence. Christ lashed out with great anger and hatred against his enemies, and he violently drove people out of the temple.

Ok, so you instead base your morals on your reasoning... So what if you're mentally ill or violent?

In that case you shouldn't take any advice from me! You'd be a fool to base your morality on my crazy, violent rants--or anybody else's crazy or violent rants.

Or another person might be mentally ill and violent, and reason for himself? What then? Are YOU the judge of everyone morality? Or just yours?

We are all judges of morality. You've accepted the Bible's morality based on your judgment, so in that regard you are exactly like I am in that you judge morality for its appropriateness. You cannot criticize me for judging morality when you do the same thing.

Besides, it would be really stupid not to judge morality. Are we just to mindlessly obey some self-proclaimed prophet of FOTS?

Well thats too bad, becuase Jesus Christ is the foundation for truth, and knowledge...

I work and study hard to acquire truth and knowledge. I don't know of any magical shortcuts.

[Tart]

Ya so you guys brought up the murdering of children, and that is what we are talking about... Im not really interested in discussing how you think pro-life is fueling abortion, or people denying people birth control methods, child assistance... Or whatever... That is irrelevant to the conversation... The justification of killing kids.

Again, it was you who brought up the issue of abortion in the context of killing kids. I think it's only fair to give me the opportunity to post my position on that issue.

Im not running from anything. I think God has the right to do as he will, which if God wills destiny like that of Jesus on the cross, God may will the death of all of us in some way...

In other words, anything you believe the Father Of The Sky (FOTS) does is by definition morally right. In that case a father demanding his son die in a horrible suicide is moral for that father to do as long as that father is FOTS.

Yes--I definitely understand what you're saying and what you see as the foundation for your morality.

Ya so if Christianity is true, that an All Knowing and All Powerful God is behind its message, and for example, Jesus was Raised by God from the Dead. If God revealed His righteousness through His Son, then we have a valid foundation of righteousness.

Now if that isnt true, there is no foundation.. You yourself admit that everyone own judgement is the foundation of morality. But if we leave it at that, that is not a valid foundation... A psychopath is not morally e

Jesus is the pinnacle of righteousness, and the foundation of our values today.

So anything Jesus commanded is by definition "the pinnacle of righteousness" and "the foundation of our values today." Have you arrived at this conclusion via Christian faith or did you come to this conclusion by doing research into morality?

Today it's common for people to believe we all have the right to believe whatever we wish without fear of punishment. Did Jesus preach that we have such a right?

Christianity certainly doesn't teach anyone to kill anyone.. In fact they teach against hating anyone...

First, dividing people up the way the Bible does can and has led to killing. Moreover, as I have pointed out repeatedly in this forum, the gospel fable does command hatred. Consider Luke 14:26:

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

So now you know that Christ is quoted as telling his followers to hate their own families, and ignorance is no longer an excuse. Please stop posting what isn't true.

And Christianity tells us to beware of false teachers, especially if they go against the teachings of Christ...

But don't you see how stupid that is? It's self-defeating. If you are to beware of "false teachers," then you should beware of Christ! The command contradicts itself telling you to beware of false teachers and then immediately commands you not to beware of a "teacher."

...how does atheism say anything about a valid foundation for morality and righteousness?

Atheism doesn't say anything, but as an atheist I'm free of barbaric religious beliefs like yours. When Jesus rants that anybody who doesn't believe him will go to hell, then I can tell him to go to hell.

You right, there is no justified violence from God... Christ turned the other cheek...

I don't know what Bible you're reading, but FOTS and Christ are portrayed in the gospel fable as glorifying violence. Christ lashed out with great anger and hatred against his enemies, and he violently drove people out of the temple.

Ok, so you instead base your morals on your reasoning... So what if you're mentally ill or violent?

In that case you shouldn't take any advice from me! You'd be a fool to base your morality on my crazy, violent rants--or anybody else's crazy or violent rants.

Or another person might be mentally ill and violent, and reason for himself? What then? Are YOU the judge of everyone morality? Or just yours?

We are all judges of morality. You've accepted the Bible's morality based on your judgment, so in that regard you are exactly like I am in that you judge morality for its appropriateness. You cannot criticize me for judging morality when you do the same thing.

Besides, it would be really stupid not to judge morality. Are we just to mindlessly obey some self-proclaimed prophet of FOTS?

Well thats too bad, becuase Jesus Christ is the foundation for truth, and knowledge...

I work and study hard to acquire truth and knowledge. I don't know of any magical shortcuts.[/quote]

[Tart]

Ya so you guys brought up the murdering of children, and that is what we are talking about... Im not really interested in discussing how you think pro-life is fueling abortion, or people denying people birth control methods, child assistance... Or whatever... That is irrelevant to the conversation... The justification of killing kids.

Again, it was you who brought up the issue of abortion in the context of killing kids. I think it's only fair to give me the opportunity to post my position on that issue.

Im not running from anything. I think God has the right to do as he will, which if God wills destiny like that of Jesus on the cross, God may will the death of all of us in some way...

In other words, anything you believe the Father Of The Sky (FOTS) does is by definition morally right. In that case a father demanding his son die in a horrible suicide is moral for that father to do as long as that father is FOTS.

Yes--I definitely understand what you're saying and what you see as the foundation for your morality.

Ya so if Christianity is true, that an All Knowing and All Powerful God is behind its message, and for example, Jesus was Raised by God from the Dead. If God revealed His righteousness through His Son, then we have a valid foundation of righteousness.

Now if that isnt true, there is no foundation.. You yourself admit that everyone own judgement is the foundation of morality. But if we leave it at that, that is not a valid foundation. That is obscure and arbitrary... Someone who thinks killing people is good because they get physical pleasure from it, is not equivalent to someone thinking killing people is bad. That is contradictory in beliefs... Objective standards of ethics can not be assumed by what you believe...

So where do you go from there?

Jesus is the pinnacle of righteousness, and the foundation of our values today.

So anything Jesus commanded is by definition "the pinnacle of righteousness" and "the foundation of our values today." Have you arrived at this conclusion via Christian faith or did you come to this conclusion by doing research into morality?

Well id say both methods... I have studied ethics, and philosophy in college classes, and they cant decide on an objective valid foundation of ethics. If you go take an ethics class they will simply teach you the different forms of ethics people assume... Like Hedonism is getting pleasure out of the things you do. Egotism tells us we ought to do what is in best interest of ourselves. While other philosophies, like what Immanuel Kant developed called "Kantianism", says that "the moral law is the categorical imperative, which acts on all people, regardless of their interests or desires." This is contradictory to Hedonism and Egotism...

Like two of the three branches in ethics are Deontology and Consequentialism. Where:
"Deontology focuses on the importance of the action itself, as opposed to the consequence."
"Consequentialism, as the name suggests, encourages actions based solely upon the consequences of the actions."
https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Introduction_to_ethics

This is clearly a self contradiction... Thus our best philosophy cant establish an objective foundation for ethical codes, yet we appeal to laws, and convicting criminals to those laws. Thus there needs to be some kind of objective foundation in order for our society to work at all. Christianity tells us that we are inherently born with the knowledge of right and wrong, and even suggests it is our curse. But we are made in the image of God, and we can determine what is right and what is wrong. It says the law is written in our hearts, but ultimately the law comes from God. It is a foundation of objective morality, and our societies are built upon that foundation, whether you accept it or not. God has established the foundation for our societies, and without such foundations there is no valid objective truths, like that of morality and the law. God isnt only needed for objective truth to make sense, he is the foundations of that truth we appeal to today.

Today it's common for people to believe we all have the right to believe whatever we wish without fear of punishment. Did Jesus preach that we have such a right?

Christianity certainly doesn't teach anyone to kill anyone.. In fact they teach against hating anyone...

First, dividing people up the way the Bible does can and has led to killing. Moreover, as I have pointed out repeatedly in this forum, the gospel fable does command hatred. Consider Luke 14:26:

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

So now you know that Christ is quoted as telling his followers to hate their own families, and ignorance is no longer an excuse. Please stop posting what isn't true.

Ya so the last thing i wanted to quote on is this... So here we have Christ telling us to hate, but not to hate our enemies, not to hate infidels or foreign governments, but to hate our loved ones, and even our own lives... We need to make sense out of this.. Why would Jesus tell us to hate our loved ones and even our own lives, but also demonstrate that we should pray for our enemies? Even the ones who persecute us, and kill us? Praying for their forgiveness...

The verse you are quoting is a verse that is telling us "The Cost of Being a Disciple"... It is simply telling us we must put God before everything, even our loved ones and even our own lives...

[Jagella]

Ya so if Christianity is true, that an All Knowing and All Powerful God is behind its message, and for example, Jesus was Raised by God from the Dead. If God revealed His righteousness through His Son, then we have a valid foundation of righteousness.

So you see a "valid foundation of righteousness" as something derived from knowledge and power and the story of the raising of a corpse to life. I'm not sure how you derive righteousness from such a strange story. As I see it, FOTS could know all and have all power and raise a corpse back to life and still be wicked.

You yourself admit that everyone own judgement is the foundation of morality.

Actually, I said that if I do have a foundation for morality, then that foundation is reason. If you disagree, then your morality is based on an absence of reason.

But if we leave it at that, that is not a valid foundation. That is obscure and arbitrary...

Well, in my opinion, basing morality on a story of the resuscitation of a corpse is as about as obscure and arbitrary as you can get! Anyway, your morality is every bit as arbitrary as my own. Exactly like I have done, you have chosen your morality.

Someone who thinks killing people is good because they get physical pleasure from it, is not equivalent to someone thinking killing people is bad. That is contradictory in beliefs...

That's no problem at all for me: my reason concludes that I should not kill people for pleasure. For that matter, I would never kill anybody because somebody says that a god wants me to. You would need to kill if Moses had told you to.

Objective standards of ethics can not be assumed by what you believe...

So where do you go from there?

I say that your morality is no more objective than my own! You have chosen your morality just like I have chosen mine. All ethics are subjective, and imagining that FOTS commanded people to do crazy things doesn't make your morality objective at all.

Christianity tells us that we are inherently born with the knowledge of right and wrong...

Then Christians must have been born with different "knowledge" of right and wrong because they keep contradicting each other over issues of right and wrong.

God has established the foundation for our societies, and without such foundations there is no valid objective truths, like that of morality and the law.

Well that sounds very convenient for you. All you need to do is proclaim your god as the true god whose word--as you understand it--is used as a basis for an absolute, objective morality. Anybody who disagrees or believes in any other god must bow to the moral injunctions of the god you believe in. You have established this absolutely objective and true morality by saying so expecting others to accept it without question and with no evidence at all to back up what you are saying.

Such "morality" does not have a good track record.

Why would Jesus tell us to hate our loved ones and even our own lives, but also demonstrate that we should pray for our enemies? Even the ones who persecute us, and kill us? Praying for their forgiveness...

The gospel tale involves a figure who may have no basis in history. Whether Jesus lived or not, though, he is portrayed as a Jewish rebel telling the other Jews that he could save them and take them to paradise. That was his goal--he wasn't out to make all people love each other but to get his followers to love each other to facilitate his mission to establish his kingdom of the sky. So "love" was very conditional. Anybody who got in the way of the kingdom of the sky, even family, were to be hated.

The verse you are quoting is a verse that is telling us "The Cost of Being a Disciple"... It is simply telling us we must put God before everything, even our loved ones and even our own lives...

That's right! And that's exactly why so much evil has been inspired by the gospel fable; put FOTS first, and hate and hurt anybody who gets in FOTS' way.