Why did God choose the Jews?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #1

Post by marco »

Assuming Yahweh is a genuine God, why would we suppose he had a favourite tribe? The famous saying is: How odd of God to choose the Jews. And the reply:

But not as odd as those who choose a Jewish God and spurn the Jews.


But I think on balance it is much odder for God to choose some human group.

Why did he choose the Jews?

Does this mean Yahweh is not anyone else's God?

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #41

Post by 1213 »

marco wrote: ...Why did he choose the Jews?...
Because they were loyal to God and showed righteousness.

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #42

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 41 by 1213]

Odd, seems like they were always worshiping the Golden Calf, or some other deity.
I can't think of a story in the Bible where they showed righteousness, can you?

Even most of their heroes were pretty darn evil.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #43

Post by JehovahsWitness »

1213 wrote:
marco wrote: ...Why did he choose the Jews?...
Because they were loyal to God and showed righteousness.

I can't agree with this. God chose to adopt the Israelites because he had made a prior promise to His friend Abraham to do so. He made this promise because of Abrahams outstanding faith and unwavering loyalty.

Although there were of course many excellent examples of men and women of faith in that nation,as a whole The nation proved to be stubborn and rebellious and they often disappointed God. Jehovah (YHWH/ God) stuck with them in order to honour his word but eventually rejected them entirely.


JW



RELATED POSTS

Is "replacement theology" despicable?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 58#p857158
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #44

Post by William »

[Replying to post 38 by marco]
The simplest of meals cannot be experienced without the totality of the environment anyways...and that is the complexity.

I agree that paradoxically complexity can emerge from simplicity. One of the simplest equations is E = a constant times m. How complex is that! I don't quite see where this leads contextually though.
Read what I stated again Marco. Simplicity comes from complexity as a means of attempting to simplify the already complex.
I was speaking semantically rather than from conviction. God is an idea that different people develop differently.
Even so, not all Jews think of GOD semantically in relation to the thread topic.
The elaboration of this idea may well speak to different degrees of intelligence in different ways. I have no doubt this would theoretically be so. In fact the more sophisticated we are, the more complex our god becomes. On this forum we see many footnotes about God, in which people add an arm or a leg, or a wise provision or a new command. God seems to wear new clothes with every age. If humanity died out, so too would God. His assumed immortality is hope hiding in reason.
Unless of course the creator-GOD of this complex universe is not actually a concept but a real entity. Also, unless of course, death is illusion and no one 'dies out'.
The main thrust of my argument in saying that GOD chooses those who chose GOD, is that this occurs on a relationship level, not a conceptual level.
I can see that. But he doesn't knock on every door. Some have no choice.
Mostly GOD doesn't knock on anyone's 'door' although it might appear to the individual that this happens, and that is why they 'respond' but more to the actuality, GOD notices when someone is 'knocking on GODs door' (the metaphor is simplistic) and from my understanding the 'door knocking' is a process which both parties do simultaneously.

No one is really 'without choice' as you put it, although I am happy to examine any example of this you might provide.
I was speaking semantically rather than from conviction. God is an idea that different people develop differently.
Yes - and I was replying that GOD is not a concept, even that the initial approach the individual makes might be based upon conceptualization. The eventual realization that GOD is actually real is what brings the individual to have relationship with the Entity, and also is what allows the individual to place aside the initial conceptions, as the relationship develops.
The elaboration of this idea may well speak to different degrees of intelligence in different ways. I have no doubt this would theoretically be so. In fact the more sophisticated we are, the more complex our god becomes.
The best assumption one can adopt is to realize that a creator of this planetary environment would - by default - have to be complex, since this is evident in the study of said environment. Thus the creator entity is not the one changing from simplicity to complexity, but rather, it is us, moving from the state of simple ignorance into the state of complex knowledge - knowledge of complexity...
Well the question is about God choosing a particular race. It is hard to read the Bible and not so conclude, however much one pleads for the personal. As for the people "responding", one can only respond if one is asked a question. The slaughtered neighbours weren't asked, it would seem. And the Hebrew response wasn't particularly positive either.
But are your concerns based upon actually interacting with those calling themselves 'Jews' to get a broader understanding of what they understand about the idea of 'being the chosen ones' or even if they altogether believe the stories are real - as in - historically factual?
This is a perfectly good notion of how things should be. It does not reflect the situation we're discussing, of a Biblical God obsessed with a Biblical tribe.
Or the biblical story does not reflect the actual nature of GOD, which is a relevant argument worthy of inclusion, although - of course - one is free to ignore that if one chooses to do so.
As intelligent beings we would suppose we each have access to our Maker, unless we read the OT. I agree Jesus seemed to contradict the OT.
Then in honor of intelligence, one can proceed accordingly. Best not to neglect investigating how Jews understand this 'chosen by GOD' stuff. Also, best not limit one's ability to connect with GOD on a personal level, by adopting Christianity (or any other organised religion) as the only means in which this is possible. Such an entity would not be limited by such device, even that 2.something billion Christians might claim otherwise.
Principally their relationship is with a book anyway, rather than an actual living entity... and they spend more time arguing about that than they do actually applying the Golden Rule across the board, which should tell the seeker that GOD is not to be realized therein.
This is good advice even in a non-God context. Know yourself! Break free of old prejudices. See in a new way. God sometimes interferes with our vision.
Certain concepts of GOD do this, yes.
Well sadness was God's idea. In this life we have real sadness, real hurt and real pain.
We are that aspect of GOD-consciousness which investigates these concepts as real experience. Some say that well chose this life knowing that we would experience such things and that it was essentially a good choice. I understand this as being possible, especially when I transform my self-position/world view from being a victim of/to it, to not a victim of/to it

I have that power, and it also changes the way I relate with GOD.
If in the next there is compensation good and well.
Unless - of course - I chose it, and therefore require no compensation. Or maybe a mix of the two...as in...I chose it knowing there would also be the inevitably compensation.
To allow one's children to suffer without hope is not the mark of good parenting.
Perhaps it is the one reason which exonerates parents from the act of bringing conscious living creatures into a world which will inevitably harm them...even encourage them to fight in wars...and clean up the mess of that...that and the fact that there are also good things to create and experience as well.

Perhaps, in that department, the argument is not relative Marco. Inferring GOD is a 'bad parent' for birthing us into this experience, makes all parents 'bad' for the same reason. Perhaps the only thing relevant left to us all is to focus upon the good of it all.
But such expressions are aimed not at an entity but an idea.
Unless - as is the case with me - the entity revealed that side of things to individuals who have chosen to have such experiences...even if the only viable aspect of the choice which caused the experience was that the individual thought it possible.
We must prepare ourselves for oblivion, closure, finality with a large full stop.
That is a bold claim for which I see no accompanying evidence to support it Marco.
Or is it simply a strong opinion framed in the inference of an absolute?
If there is light beyond, then our joy will be great or perhaps teeth will gnash over our blindness so that we are punished twice.
According to many items I have read up on the subject, what occurs is intimately related with the psyche of the individual. That could mean "all of the above and more besides".

Certainly there appears to be those extremes as well, and the mansions are well sectioned off from each other - that only the guides have an overview - those within the mansions are none the wiser unless the occasional anomaly makes itself known to them...such as a guide quietly visiting and telling/showing them things...

In relation to that, of what I can ascertain from your expressions in general Marco, is that you will have nothing to worry about.

Of course, only you will know that for sure. :)
The Jewish idea that God chose them was a clever one, like Einstein's. Clever ideas persist.
Another reason why the Israelite's were perhaps chosen by GOD Marco. GOD enjoys intelligence from those who choose GOD.
Stands to reason really. Ask those Jews who believe that they are here to serve GOD in the capacity of serving all GODs creations. Importantly, one has to be so intelligent as to have the wisdom not to use one's intelligence for the purpose of suppressing the less intelligent by purposefully keeping them in the dark. (Even in the name of national security.)

Enter the idea of a GOOD GOD, after the knock and the door being opened.

Whichever way one travels through an open doorway, one is always entering.

showme
Sage
Posts: 881
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:04 pm

Re: Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #45

Post by showme »

marco wrote: Assuming Yahweh is a genuine God, why would we suppose he had a favourite tribe? The famous saying is: How odd of God to choose the Jews. And the reply:

But not as odd as those who choose a Jewish God and spurn the Jews.


But I think on balance it is much odder for God to choose some human group.

Why did he choose the Jews?

Does this mean Yahweh is not anyone else's God?
Actually he chose Israel, to be a holy people, and an example to the nations. Israel in the form of the "house of Israel"/Ephraim, chose to walk the wrong path and has been in judgment ever since (Hosea 5). Judah, the Jews, simply waited some time before they followed the example of their sister, the house of Israel. In the future, the nations, as well as Judah/Jews, and the house of Israel/Ephraim will come under a greater judgment, known as the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21). The ideal is for the hearts of the sons to return to the hearts of the fathers" (Malachi 4:6) so that God can relent on the judgment to come. I expect that in the first week of November 2018, that we will have an idea to what degree that God may relent on the magnitude and distribution of the coming Tribulation. And the nations have their own gods (Daniel 10:13), but will eventually, after the coming Tribulation/Har-Magedon, those who are "left of all the nations" will worship the LORD in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16)

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #46

Post by ttruscott »

marco wrote: But I think on balance it is much odder for God to choose some human group. Why did he choose the Jews? Does this mean Yahweh is not anyone else's God?
Could it not be said that GOD chose people to teach them the nature of sin that even as the special people of YHWH they would not live was HE ordained? HE chose a man and the man's family. The family grew and many people at many times moved away from HIM. They become tribes and HE accepted them but they were not true to HIM. They demanded a king so HE gave them kings and they moved away from HIM until HE destroyed the nation. Twice. HE promised them a Messiah and HE gave them a Messiah and they killed Him to be true to their religion and law.

Surely there is a lesson here for someone... There is a theme here that is the chosen lesson, not the people, as he is not a Jew who is born a Jew anymore: Roman's 2:27 The one who is physically uncircumcised yet keeps the Law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.…

We'll just have to see how well this one plays out with HIS new family, the gentilic Jew. So far, par for the course I think.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #47

Post by 1213 »

Willum wrote: Odd, seems like they were always worshiping the Golden Calf, or some other deity.
I can't think of a story in the Bible where they showed righteousness, can you?

Even most of their heroes were pretty darn evil.
Yes, not all of them, but because there were enough, they got the promises.

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #48

Post by 1213 »

JehovahsWitness wrote:I can't agree with this. God chose to adopt the Israelites because he had made a prior promise to His friend Abraham to do so. He made this promise because of Abrahams outstanding faith and unwavering loyalty.

Although there were of course many excellent examples of men and women of faith in that nation,as a whole The nation proved to be stubborn and rebellious and they often disappointed God. Jehovah (YHWH/ God) stuck with them in order to honour his word but eventually rejected them entirely.
Yes, I agree that not all of them were righteous. But there has been enough and that is why they got the promises and special status. But as Bible shows, it can be lost also and instead of blessing, they can get curse, if person acts not righteously.

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #49

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 47 by 1213]

So they say about themselves. But their actions paint the different picture doesn't it?

Why would you believe what a people says about themselves?
So many people are some God's chosen people, why do you believe one vainglorious claim over another?

jgh7

Re: Why did God choose the Jews?

Post #50

Post by jgh7 »

1213 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:I can't agree with this. God chose to adopt the Israelites because he had made a prior promise to His friend Abraham to do so. He made this promise because of Abrahams outstanding faith and unwavering loyalty.

Although there were of course many excellent examples of men and women of faith in that nation,as a whole The nation proved to be stubborn and rebellious and they often disappointed God. Jehovah (YHWH/ God) stuck with them in order to honour his word but eventually rejected them entirely.
Yes, I agree that not all of them were righteous. But there has been enough and that is why they got the promises and special status. But as Bible shows, it can be lost also and instead of blessing, they can get curse, if person acts not righteously.
The Jews did not earn their special status in the OT. It was a promise of God that He made to their forefathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob). I do think it's possible however that Abraham was a special person more righteous than nearly all. I'll give him that. But the OT Jews as a whole, no definitely not. By the time of their later kings and eventually to their captivity, they had become more evil than the nations they were supposed to destroy. (2 Kings 21:9)

Deuteronomy 9:4-6
4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you. 5 “It is not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart that you go in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God drives them out from before you, and that He may fulfill the word which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6 “Therefore understand that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people.

Post Reply