Over sixty valid deities in the OT

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Willum
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Over sixty valid deities in the OT

Post #1

Post by Willum »

So I knew there were other gods listed in the Torah/OT, but I didn't realize there were over sixty!

Sixty deities spoken about as if they were, to spout the phrase, "living gods."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... brew_Bible

How can the OT claim to be monotheistic, when Asherah (Ha-Sarah), is Yahweh's wife, and so many other deities are part of the narrative?

We all thought Judaism was monotheistic, but it has as many gods as any other religion.

Can anyone explain this?

If you are Judaic, is it OK to worship one of the less bloodthirsty ones? Dagon, god of grain and the oceans, seems nice.

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Post #61

Post by Tart »

[Replying to post 60 by Willum]
And i just say that becuase this quote...

"But you didn’t do that, you put them on equal footing. Either there are many gods, and God, or you said they are all equally false."

I mean, i dont even believe that and I didnt do that like you are suggesting. The entire time i have said there is one living God in the Bible (the God of the Israelite's), and all the rest are talked about as being false gods. But you wont acknowledged that, and now you are claiming i dont even believe that, and never said so. It makes me question why im even talking with you, if you are going to be this unreasonable... It gets to a point of like, why am i trying to tell you anything? If you're just not going to acknowledge the things i say... It makes it seem like there is no point in even correcting you, so you dont straw-man my beliefs... It's like why even correct you?

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Re: Over sixty valid deities in the OT

Post #62

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 8 by JehovahsWitness]
What do you mean "interacting" do you mean a character praying to them and the deity answering? I ask because "interaction" for me means a two-way exchange of some kind.
JW, if you're going to use non-interaction as a criteria by which to dismiss a named deity as being real (in your estimation), then what about your god when it comes to myself? I've never interacted with him, nor him with myself, despite repeated entreaties from me.
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Re: Over sixty valid deities in the OT

Post #63

Post by Tcg »

tam wrote:
What implications?
I've already explained it quite clearly, tam. Any number of gods beyond one no longer qualifies for monotheism. It's not rocket science. In fact, I can't imagine a more simplistic level of math.

One god - monotheism

Two or more gods - not monotheism

Your argument that it may be only 40 gods is clearly an attempt to ignore the clear implication of what more than one means.

In case I haven't explained this clearly enough, 40 is without any doubt more than one.

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Re: Over sixty valid deities in the OT

Post #64

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 63 by Tcg]

Monotheism

Monotheism has been defined as the belief in the existence of only one god that created the world, is all-powerful and intervenes in the world.

Does the bible state that any of these other 'gods' are the creator and all powerful? If so, please provide a text from the bible supporting that claim.



And for the third time now:

As to the rest (though there is overlap among the false gods on that page as well, such as asherah pole and asherah) there is no question that people worshiped multiple gods; including Israel. But Israel was rebuked continuously for doing this, for adopting the ways and the gods of the nations around them. Just because the bible mentions something does not mean that the bible is saying those things are true (or valid). False things are mentioned and called out as well. The golden calf is listed as one of those gods on that wiki page, and Israel was rebuked for having done this horrible thing (for having made and then worshiped that golden calf).




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Re: Over sixty valid deities in the OT

Post #65

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 64 by tam]

If there were an All-powerful entity there in the beginning, and his principles are as you claim they are, how could even whispers of other gods spring forth?

Do you imagine there are other deities when you are worshiping in church? Where would they even come from if:
Let's just pick Noah - if the only surviving men and family, only knew one potently demonstrated deity?
Just because the bible mentions something does not mean that the bible is saying those things are true (or valid).
And you ignore those things that the Bible mentions are true are conveniently ignored when they say things you don't believe.
And you ignore that different versions of the Bible say things you don't believe.

40 deities the Bible mentions, of those roughly 12 are venerated by by the tribes.
What we have discovered is that the folks who wrote the Bible were polytheists and did a poor job of converting their book to monotheism. Very like Akhenaten of Egypt, who, as a political move tried to convert Egypt to monotheism.

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Re: Over sixty valid deities in the OT

Post #66

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 64 by tam]
Monotheism has been defined as the belief in the existence of only one god that created the world, is all-powerful and intervenes in the world.
A different reading of the above line can indicate a belief that there may be multiple gods, but only one was involved in the creation of the world, is all powerful and intervenes.
Indeed, what you leave out from the quote you took from Wikipedia (which you did not cite) is the line after.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism
A distinction may be made between exclusive monotheism, and both inclusive monotheism and pluriform (panentheistic) monotheism which, while recognising various distinct gods, postulate some underlying unity.

An explanation of the two forms
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/12/2 ... onotheism/
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Re: Over sixty valid deities in the OT

Post #67

Post by StuartJ »

[Replying to post 66 by rikuoamero]

Your point is very well made.

It's the omissions that are almost always very, very telling.

You have been dealing with all manner of standard, devious dodges here.

The OP is simple and clear.

Persons of faith have once again omitted and obfuscated (IMO).

It's why I don't trust people of faith when it comes to matters of faith.

I might start another thread on Lying for Jesus
No one EVER demonstrates that "God" exists outside their parietal cortex.

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Re: Over sixty valid deities in the OT

Post #68

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 64 by tam]
Monotheism has been defined as the belief in the existence of only one god that created the world, is all-powerful and intervenes in the world.
A different reading of the above line can indicate a belief that there may be multiple gods, but only one was involved in the creation of the world, is all powerful and intervenes.
I think that reading is covered under monolatry. Monolatry might also have some accurate characteristics: if it acknowledges that other "gods" exist (little "g" gods, such as angels/immortal beings; even the Adversary is described as being the "god" of this world).... but that there is only one true God (the God of Abraham, the God and Father of Christ, the Most Holy One of Israel). This might also be covered under monotheism (in one of those more specific definitions). I also do not know what nuances might be hidden in the definition of 'monolatry' and I suppose it might depend upon how some people define 'gods'. Even men were once considered to be gods (such as the Pharaohs and other ancient king; and doesn't North Korea dabble in deifying their leaders?). I am not a person who likes labels for these reasons; their definitions are not always entirely accurate, people do not always understand them accurately, and those definitions can change over time.


Indeed, what you leave out from the quote you took from Wikipedia (which you did not cite) is the line after.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism
A distinction may be made between exclusive monotheism, and both inclusive monotheism and pluriform (panentheistic) monotheism which, while recognising various distinct gods, postulate some underlying unity.
I left it out because it was vague and because it did not apply. I looked up those terms on the link the wiki page gave:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/monotheism




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Re: Over sixty valid deities in the OT

Post #69

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 68 by tam]
Monolatry might also have some accurate characteristics: if it acknowledges that other "gods" exist (little "g" gods, such as angels/immortal beings; even the Adversary is described as being the "god" of this world).... but that there is only one true God (the God of Abraham, the God and Father of Christ, the Most Holy One of Israel).
Monolatry isn't something that can only talk about the God of Abraham. Besides, the Wikipedia article on monolatry talks about this God of Abraham as not necessarily excluding the existence of other gods (but doesn't say whether big g or little g).

most scholars see Akhenaten as a practitioner of monolatry rather than monotheism, as he did not actively deny the existence of other gods; he simply refrained from worshiping any but Aten. It is known that Atenism did not solely attribute divinity to the Aten. Akhenaten continued the imperial cult, proclaiming himself the son of Aten and encouraging the people to worship him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatry

This has shades of Jesus Christ and Christianity there.
I left it out because it was vague and because it did not apply. I looked up those terms on the link the wiki page gave:
This doesn't make sense, tam. You're on a thread that argues that multiple valid deities, other than the God of Abraham, are mentioned in your holy scriptures, and to date, you have been arguing, repeating yourself multiple times no less,
Just because the bible mentions something does not mean that the bible is saying those things are true (or valid). False things are mentioned and called out as well. The golden calf is listed as one of those gods on that wiki page, and Israel was rebuked for having done this horrible thing (for having made and then worshiped that golden calf).

You quoted a definition of monotheism (without citing the source) and arguing that there (literally?) is only the one God. How can the inclusive/exclusive monotheism not apply in an argument like this one? Why leave that out? Here, I will quote from the link I gave.

Hence even though Israel may originally have conceived of YHWH as one of the gods, perhaps even practicing a form of inclusive monotheism, eventually it moved into an exclusive monotheism, denying all other gods precisely as gods.
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Over sixty valid deities in the OT

Post #70

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 68 by tam]
Monolatry might also have some accurate characteristics: if it acknowledges that other "gods" exist (little "g" gods, such as angels/immortal beings; even the Adversary is described as being the "god" of this world).... but that there is only one true God (the God of Abraham, the God and Father of Christ, the Most Holy One of Israel).
Monolatry isn't something that can only talk about the God of Abraham.
Yes, but that is the God I am referencing; the God of Israel.
Besides, the Wikipedia article on monolatry talks about this God of Abraham as not necessarily excluding the existence of other gods (but doesn't say whether big g or little g).
Yes, that is what I also said. But if monolatry is stating that there are other gods besides the one true God who are also all powerful, and who created the world, then monolatry would not seem to apply.


most scholars see Akhenaten as a practitioner of monolatry rather than monotheism, as he did not actively deny the existence of other gods; he simply refrained from worshiping any but Aten. It is known that Atenism did not solely attribute divinity to the Aten. Akhenaten continued the imperial cult, proclaiming himself the son of Aten and encouraging the people to worship him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatry

This has shades of Jesus Christ and Christianity there.
Of God and of His having a Son, perhaps. But if it is true about what Akhenaten claimed and did, then it is simply a man thinking this truth (that God has a Son) applied to him. Not much different than various people erroneously thinking and claiming that they are the Messiah (even people today do this).

I left it out because it was vague and because it did not apply. I looked up those terms on the link the wiki page gave:
This doesn't make sense, tam. You're on a thread that argues that multiple valid deities, other than the God of Abraham, are mentioned in your holy scriptures, and to date, you have been arguing, repeating yourself multiple times no less,
Just because the bible mentions something does not mean that the bible is saying those things are true (or valid). False things are mentioned and called out as well. The golden calf is listed as one of those gods on that wiki page, and Israel was rebuked for having done this horrible thing (for having made and then worshiped that golden calf).
Yes, because the bible does not argue multiple valid deities. The OP is false.

The OP states that there are over 60 deities mentioned in the OT. This is false.

The OP states that there are over 60 valid deities mentioned in the OT. This is false (and valid is not defined, but I would assume that it means TRUE). So this claim is also false.

The OP states that these many deities are spoken about as if they were "living gods". This is also false.


Using the example that I keep repeating, the golden calf is not spoken about as if it is a valid deity; nor is it spoken about as if it is a "living god". Tart quoted from the OT where the gods of other nations that people make for themselves are called out as not being real or alive (they cannot speak, cannot see, cannot move).



And the simplest point of all - just because the OT mentions people worshiping other gods does not mean that the OT is claiming those other gods are real, or living, or valid.


Agree or disagree?

You quoted a definition of monotheism (without citing the source) and arguing that there (literally?) is only the one God.


I did not cite the source, I apologize. It was just the first thing that came up on google when I googled definition of monotheism.
How can the inclusive/exclusive monotheism not apply in an argument like this one?
They do not change the definition of basic monotheism (one God being the creator and being all-powerful). Plus the wording was vague and based on what 'may' be, postulating 'some' unity. (A distinction may be made between exclusive monotheism, and both inclusive monotheism and pluriform (panentheistic) monotheism which, while recognising various distinct gods, postulate some underlying unity.) Since the wording was vague, I did not include it. And because inclusive and exclusive monotheism are still forms of monotheism. If one of the forms of monotheism applies, then the OT is still monotheistic.

So I simply find it unnecessary in terms of the OP to include the various shades of monotheism.
For exclusive monotheism only one god exists; other gods either simply do not exist at all or, at most, are false gods or demons—i.e., beings that are acknowledged to exist but that cannot be compared in power or any other way with the one and only true God. This position is in the main that of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. While in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) the other gods in most cases were still characterized as false gods, in later Judaism and in Christianity as it developed theologically and philosophically, the conception emerged of God as the one and only, and other gods were considered not to exist at all.
(please note that britannica states that the OT characterizes the other gods in most cases as false gods, by which I think they mean non-existent)

But this is still monotheism.
Inclusive monotheism accepts the existence of a great number of gods but holds that all gods are essentially one and the same, so that it makes little or no difference under which name or according to which rite a god or goddess is invoked.
Even though I can not accept this shade of monotheism, it is still defined as monotheism. But I do not see how inclusive monotheism applies in the OT, or to the OP, so I did not mention it.

(Why leave that out? Here, I will quote from the link I gave.

Hence even though Israel may originally have conceived of YHWH as one of the gods, perhaps even practicing a form of inclusive monotheism, eventually it moved into an exclusive monotheism, denying all other gods precisely as gods.

Either way, it is still monotheism, yes?


Even so, this suggestion is not one that the OT supports. Israel did not conceive of YHWH in the first place, in the OT. He is the God of Abraham, and Abraham came before Israel. Other nations before Israel also acknowledged God Most High (the God of Abraham) including Egypt.



Hope that helped!


Peace again to you!

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