Christians and Message Boards

[William]

Today while scrolling my FB news-feed I received this:



‘Christian Ouija Board’

Now it can be assumed that the majority of Christians are against such practice due to what can be regarded as superstitious-based beliefs as to what is and what is not acceptable Christian practice in relation to mediums used to 'connect with GOD', and thus any Christian response to this thread is likely going to be negative in relation to those beliefs.

Even so, we have a fairly well established over-arching idea that Christians can pretty much use any means available in order to 'connect' by simply interpreting their main script in a manner which allows for that to be the case, which is likely why some Christians are using the so-called 'Ouija' method of communication to connect with 'things associated with their idea of GOD - namely (in this case) "Angels".

Perhaps they do so on the belief that since Jesus has all authority, then if they use Ouija to commune with otherwise invisible entities by invoking Jesus then all is well and good in that regard.

This of course would be argued as 'wrong' by those who believe Jesus was not even a spokes-person for YHWH, let alone GOD.
All without a shred of viable evidence that their proclamations that "YHWH is GOD", is itself, a matter of fact, it has to be said.

Add to that other OT verbiage re 'rules and regulations' which they placed into the mouth of their GOD, and can it still be argued that YHWH meant you couldn't use Tarot and other so-called "Occult" device in order to make a connection with Him and his entourage?

Understandably, He (YHWH) appears more concerned that such device is used NOT to connect with Him and His Entourage. THAT is the essential problem. NOT the device but how the device is used.

Recently I advised a member of this board - who I think of as an Agnostic due to his usual expressions hereabouts - that since he claimed that he could not 'talk to the dead' that he should try the Ouija approach and see what can be discovered therein.

I was not trying to be ironic, but rather making a point that we shouldn't make claims if we haven't tried out any and all available device in order to see if our assumption-which-contributes-to-the-claim is is either correct, or not correct at all.

I have myself created message boards for the extensive use of communing with invisible intelligent entities, and know them to work fine. The process helped me immensely with such things as understanding myself, changing my approach as to how I see and experience 'life' and many more other good things.

Here is a picture of my very first "Ouija" device.


I don't use this method of communion very often anymore because it did the job necessary and that is that. I have no regrets at all in having done so. It is a most powerful communications tool when in the right hands (so to speak) and used properly, as it was designed to be used.

In fact, using the internet reminds me of using Ouija as there are close parallels to these devices. The computer screen becomes the 'message board' the mouse/finger acts as the pointer, the keyboard acts as the voice and we all act as the invisible intelligent entities in regard to each other.

Q: What opinion do you hold in regard to use of "Ouija Message Boards"?

Q: In relation to the first Q, what makes your opinion legitimate?

[William]

When a person accepts Christ as Lord and Saviour and his/her dead spirit is brought alive in Christ, God fills that person with the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit through whom we communicate with God in the name of Jesus Christ.

By and large the condition of Christianity itself, refutes the idea that a "Holy Spirit" is involved with any so-called "communication" with an invisible entity called "God".
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him"

How is this helpful to your argument? How does "The Spirit of God" "Dwell IN you?" [What does the 'you' signify?]
What is "The Spirit of Christ" that it identifies someone belonging to someone else?

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God?"

Again - what is the 'you' being referred to here? Is it the body or something else?

The Holy Spirit brings gifts and one of the gifts he brings is the ability to discern spirits.

Tell me then. Why are there male and female spirits and why do you refer to the Holy Ghost in the masculine? Have you 'discerned' this to be the case with the assistance of the Holy Ghost, or through some other medium?

In 1 Cor. 1:12, it speaks of being able to distinguish between spirits.

What distinguishes the Holy Ghost from other ghosts?

Christians are told NOT to engage in the occult because that is the realm of Satan and demons.

Who told them this? Do you have supporting evidence? Why would Christians shy away from examining that which is hidden? As a Christian, are you aware that "Occult' means "hidden"?

That is why Christians won't use Ouija boards.

Because they are told not to by those who teach them? In case what is hidden is reveled to them?
For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. Mark 4:22

Why invite evil into one's life by opening one's self up that way?

Why let misinformation [such as horror stories/movies] dictate to you what is true and false when The Holy Ghost is able to show you otherwise.

Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.” Exodus 23:1

And, as I noted above, we have the Holy Spirit. We don't need to try to find answers using practices of the occult.

As has been shown, wherever you are getting you information - it cannot be that which 'leads one into all truth' - so while the claim is certainly evident, there is not supporting evidence accompanying the claim.

"Practices of the occult" is simply saying "Things done in secret which are purposefully hidden from the awareness of others"

["Awareness of that which was once hidden from awareness." is not evil practice.]

Now why would The Creator want things hidden from our awareness? That makes no sense.
What does make sense is that IF there are ways in which truth can be revealed and there are those who do not want people finding out that truth, THEN "placing a shadow" onto those ways to scare frightened people off investigating for themselves, has always been a successful ploy used by those in positions which enable them to do so.

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Ephesians 6:12 See also "The Doctrine of Satan" thread regarding methodology of wickedness.

I have myself created message boards for the extensive use of communing with invisible intelligent entities, and know them to work fine.

So you do acknowledge that there are "invisible intelligent entities".

Yes. To me, you are one such entity. Is it evil of us to communicate with one another just because we are invisible to one another?

You just don't consider the God of the Bible to be one of them.

If that were so, why would I write in the OP, the following?

Add to that other OT verbiage re 'rules and regulations' which they placed into the mouth of their GOD, and can it still be argued that YHWH meant you couldn't use Tarot and other so-called "Occult" device in order to make a connection with Him and his entourage?

Understandably, He (YHWH) appears more concerned that such device is used NOT to connect with Him and His Entourage. THAT is the essential problem. NOT the device but how the device is used.

At least with such device, one can record what is being said and the communion goes both ways. Sounds like an ideal tool for a good purpose in establishing two-way conversation.
The process helped me immensely with such things as understanding myself, changing my approach as to how I see and experience 'life' and many more other good things.

Just who are these entities and what evidence do you have that they exist?

That is rich, coming from a Christian.

But here - for your information - from another post I made in this thread;

Essentially ideomotor phenomena can enable the studious - through proper use - to connect with what appear to be 'other' entities, and for me this amounted to starting out communicating with a very basic entity with limited communication skills, and eventually graduating from there with entities more advanced in the art of communication.

In the end, I was informed that I had actually be communicating with aspects of my SELF, to which - in my ordinary framework of Human experience - I had regarded as 'other entities'.

Through correct use of Ideomotor Effect, the individual learns how to engage with that mysterious thing called 'subconscious' 'unconscious' and 'super-conscious'.
Some call it 'higher self' or 'GOD'.

The illusion of self in regard to 'the mind' through the Human experience, is but a very tiny portion of who each of us really ARE.

The above is a good example of truth reveled.

[William]

I have myself created message boards for the extensive use of communing with invisible intelligent entities, and know them to work fine.

What methods did you employ to falsify the hypothesis that you were simply experiencing ideomotor action, rather than communicating with invisible spirits?

At the time I was using this method, this was not important to me as I was mainly interested in the fact that there was interactive intelligent communication going on.

I would suggest you engage the help of an independent person to first blindfold you, then provide you with a standard ouija board (letters, numbers, ‘yes’ and ‘no’).

By filming your communication attempts, it will be clear whether the ‘spirits’ are equally hampered by the blindfold as you are, or not.

It you follow this thread and read the posts, you will discover for yourself that this became apparent to me.

Even in saying that, I was unaware that the intelligence I was communing with through this method was doing the double blind with me when I was instructed to make a board which had hundreds of symbols on it - so many that I couldn't possibly memorize the meanings of every symbol etched on the glass.

Many years later while doing further investigation online, I came across a video with Penn and Teller showing how easy it was to just turn the board around while the user was blindfolded and "watch the mystery reveled".
It is a necessary test to undertake in regards to any claims involving subject matter of messages received, not so much in relation to the fact that messages are indeed generated through the method.

The important thing to focus on would have to be whether the messages come from some intelligence external to the user or from an internal [yet unknown] place within the users own {sub} consciousness.

I can say from experience that the messages come from otherwise hidden areas of the overall consciousness of the individual user.

[See post#9 in this thread for more on that idea].

Q: What opinion do you hold in regard to use of "Ouija Message Boards"?

That their supposed ‘powers’ can be easily explained, and have been demonstrated to be simple fakery or psychological tricks ever since they first became popular in the nineteenth century.

I would add to that, that it depends on the nature of the user and why they use the device. If it is only for purposes of trickery, then - just as for users who do so to help there own journey into self discovery - the tool will deliver accordingly.
The thing I found abysmal re the Penn and Teller exposure, was that they did not bother to investigate using a variety of individual users and cross reference the data which would have been available if they had of done so.

I suggest that your claim that use of such device has "been demonstrated to be simple fakery or psychological tricks ever since they first became popular in the nineteenth century." suffers from the same lack of study - proper scientific study.

Q: In relation to the first Q, what makes your opinion legitimate?

I’m fortunate not to have to rely on opinion. Repeated scientific experiment and observation of mundane explanations, coupled with a total lack of success for any ‘psychic’ person to demonstrate the existence of the supernatural to any degree should suffice for most reasonable people.

I think that people can be forgiven for assuming that when using such device that they are somehow communing with something unnatural [supernatural] which exists outside their selves.
The device is not a tool for reading others minds or making psychic predictions. Unfortunately scientist miss that aspect and would even learn so much more about themselves if they just understood what the device purpose is - a scientific tool in itself...and generate intelligent messages.

In light of that, anyone worried about evil spirits might find some reassurance from reading up on the science. Here, for instance:

https://sciencenordic.com/behaviour-den ... rk/1457820

Now there - even without looking - I can assume some good information regarding superstitious beliefs - something I understand far better for having used the device...and why I created the thread "The Doctrine of Satan" in order to expose the methods used by culture to get people to believe in fear-based non-tested claims. [see post #12 for more on that]

Thanks for your reply and the link Diagoras

eta

This is a picture of the device I created after getting a message to do so through use of similar device.
The device itself is 12 inch square mirror-glass tile.



This is a pic of one page of a notebook i used to keep record of the symbol meanings as well as writing down the symbols as the pointer rested over them and then [after ending the communication session] having to decipher before the message was reveled. [Double blind]

[Diagoras]

The important thing to focus on would have to be whether the messages come from some intelligence external to the user or from an internal [yet unknown] place within the users own {sub} consciousness.

I can say from experience that the messages come from otherwise hidden areas of the overall consciousness of the individual user.

That seems to fit (internal, not external) with what I’ve heard and read about.

The thing I found abysmal re the Penn and Teller exposure, was that they did not bother to investigate <..>

I would assume that they simply focused on creating an entertaining TV show, but I haven’t seen the clip myself so can’t fairly comment.

I suggest that your claim that use of such device has "been demonstrated to be simple fakery or psychological tricks ever since they first became popular in the nineteenth century." suffers from the same lack of study - proper scientific study.

We disagree slightly here, but only (I think) because you are claiming something different other than ‘talking to the spirits of dead people’. The ‘talk to the dead’ aspect of ouija has been properly studied and found to be exactly as I have described. But I’m not personally aware of any studies where a person attempts to ‘unlock’ their subconscious knowledge through ideomotor action or similar methods.

This is a picture of the device I created after getting a message to do so through use of similar device.

Whatever else I might think about it, I can certainly admire it as a work of art. Looks impressive.

This is a pic of one page of a notebook i used to keep record of the symbol meanings as well as writing down the symbols as the pointer rested over them and then [after ending the communication session] having to decipher before the message was revealed. [Double blind]

<bolding mine>

Many years ago, I bought a Tarot card deck and spent a few entertaining evenings with a couple of friends doing ‘readings’. I found that with practice, I could weave a seemingly consistent, plausibly relevant and precise narrative for people, doing much the same thing as here: ‘deciphering’ symbols on cards which appeared from a shuffled deck.

I’m not sure how you are using the term ‘double-blind’ here, as you appear to be the one both moving the pointer and also doing the deciphering - which you must admit can be just as open to different interpretations as any vaguely written prophecy could be.

How is what you’re doing different from me doing a Tarot card reading?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #9]

That is too ambiguous to be an answer to the question.

The truth isn't often what some of you want.

Perhaps it is a matter of whether or not the message board is useful to the one using it?

Like all tools, they're only useful if they're used. A message board 'just sitting there' only takes up space. Once it's used, is a different 'story'.

Well - thanks for informing us of that.

You're welcome.

I find it is a similar answer as to why Christians find the Bible such a useful tool, too.

Did you expect anything else?
Do you expect them to prove to you what their opinion of it is?

When one is asked their opinion of something, you should expect a response of their opinion, one which you may or may not like.

[William]

The important thing to focus on would have to be whether the messages come from some intelligence external to the user or from an internal [yet unknown] place within the users own {sub} consciousness.

I can say from experience that the messages come from otherwise hidden areas of the overall consciousness of the individual user.

That seems to fit (internal, not external) with what I’ve heard and read about.

Yes - there is [thankfully] more study involved with the science of it than with simply proclaiming it is "of the devil" as Christians generally do.

The thing I found abysmal re the Penn and Teller exposure, was that they did not bother to investigate <..>

I would assume that they simply focused on creating an entertaining TV show, but I haven’t seen the clip myself so can’t fairly comment.

Yes - they are in the business of entertainment and should perhaps just stick to that. I did look for the video online but - while there are mentions of it, didn't find the actual video I remember watching, and only mentioned it is relation to doing the necessary proper science...

I suggest that your claim that use of such device has "been demonstrated to be simple fakery or psychological tricks ever since they first became popular in the nineteenth century." suffers from the same lack of study - proper scientific study.

We disagree slightly here, but only (I think) because you are claiming something different other than ‘talking to the spirits of dead people’. The ‘talk to the dead’ aspect of ouija has been properly studied and found to be exactly as I have described. But I’m not personally aware of any studies where a person attempts to ‘unlock’ their subconscious knowledge through ideomotor action or similar methods.

Yes - that is it in a nut shell. Basically everything involved with the study is focused primarily on the beliefs people have about use of message boards {Ideomotor phenomena} and this curious focus also extends into debating chambers...and often distracts one from pursuing other possible insightful pathways of thinking...

This is a picture of the device I created after getting a message to do so through use of similar device.

Whatever else I might think about it, I can certainly admire it as a work of art. Looks impressive.

I did my best to create something which reflected the respect I developed for this communication process.

This is a pic of one page of a notebook I used to keep record of the symbol meanings as well as writing down the symbols as the pointer rested over them and then [after ending the communication session] having to decipher before the message was revealed. [Double blind]

<bolding mine>

Many years ago, I bought a Tarot card deck and spent a few entertaining evenings with a couple of friends doing ‘readings’. I found that with practice, I could weave a seemingly consistent, plausibly relevant and precise narrative for people, doing much the same thing as here: ‘deciphering’ symbols on cards which appeared from a shuffled deck.

I’m not sure how you are using the term ‘double-blind’ here, as you appear to be the one both moving the pointer and also doing the deciphering - which you must admit can be just as open to different interpretations as any vaguely written prophecy could be.

How is what you’re doing different from me doing a Tarot card reading?

Some good points and suitable questions.

I think you are conflating interpretation with deciphering.

As an example, anyone who has the meanings the symbols represent should all decipher the following in the same way.



The thing about so-called 'occult' devices is that they are specifically for the purpose of doing 'self readings' rather than readings for others.
I generated a message [through a different message generating system] on 12th February 2018 Earth teachers (physical) discover the way to the Grand Portal via the Tributary Zones
Victim/Vampire Energy Exchange The Messiah Syndrome Free To Choose Rest When Weary
Science Make It Up As You Go Along For Your Greater Enjoyment Dreamed Up By Yours Truly Remember/Memories Discipline Able To/Will You Do It In the Soil of Logic, The Seeds of Love Respond What Is Normal? Do Not Panic William Read On Knowledge Speaks, Wisdom Hears
You Know What I Am Saying.

The above can be interpreted in any number of ways by different individuals. There may be agreement of the core-gist, but interpretations will spiral away in different directions.

Devices of introspection. Tarot and Runes and such are all devices of self-introspection.

What the user is required to be, is honest with self. In that, any science done has to be done with this in mind, for one is testing ones own honesty in the process.

The ability to stay honest is why I eventually discovered that the device was not [necessarily] connecting me with 'external entities' but gives that appearance because the user is somewhat confined within the parameters of whatever the user understands his/herself to being at the onset - how the user 'self-identifies' - and since most of us are very unaware/unconscious of our full selves, that we are so much more than we consciously understand our selves to being, there is work to be done to chisel away at the aspects of costume which are fake images we believe to be true ...

[William]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #16]

Like with most other things, opinions can be shown to be faulty if indeed they are faulty. Sure - I asked for opinion because that is really all folk can give about most things debatable.

If I think the opinion is unreasonable, or misinformed, I will say so.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #16]

Like with most other things, opinions can be shown to be faulty if indeed they are faulty. Sure - I asked for opinion because that is really all folk can give about most things debatable.

If I think the opinion is unreasonable, or misinformed, I will say so.

Of course you're free to state your own opinion (well done, by the way )
I haven't seen you show anyone's opinion faulty.
But maybe that's the reason for the thread: self aggrandizing. If that's the case...

Maybe this will assist you with your 'quest':
https://www.gaia.com/video/ouija-101-karen-dahlman

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/7 ... _A_Dahlman
https://www.sheknows.com/living/article ... s-experts/
https://www.ibtimes.com/does-ouija-boar ... ie-1711485
https://www.linkedin.com/in/talkingboards

[William]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #16]

Like with most other things, opinions can be shown to be faulty if indeed they are faulty. Sure - I asked for opinion because that is really all folk can give about most things debatable.

If I think the opinion is unreasonable, or misinformed, I will say so.

Of course you're free to state your own opinion (well done, by the way )

It is nice when truthfulness is acknowledge. Thank You Nobs[people]

I haven't seen you show anyone's opinion faulty.

Are you [therefore] saying that the Christians are correct in their opinion that one is "Dancing With The Devil" by using such device?

But maybe that's the reason for the thread: self aggrandizing. If that's the case...

One-liners such as this contribute nothing to the opinion-based debate.
Also, it implies that you were not being sincere with your (well done, by the way ) comment...makes for the possibility of barriers being built by that which is not genuine in expression.

Maybe this will assist you with your 'quest':

[//www.]gaia.com/video/ouija-101-karen-dahlman

Yes indeed. I consider myself to be friends with Karen...here is some evidence pointing to that claim...


You can go to the site [circled in blue at top of image] and click on Galleries [also circled in blue]

Then scroll down that page until you get to these images;

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/7 ... _A_Dahlman
https://www.sheknows.com/living/article ... s-experts/
https://www.ibtimes.com/does-ouija-boar ... ie-1711485
https://www.linkedin.com/in/talkingboards

Lots of information there specifically about Ouija [as the talking board image getting the most focus]...it does 'scratch the surface' but there are deeper places underneath all that...introspectively speaking....

Click "Yes" or "No" in image below for more data on "Talking Boards"

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #19]

Are you [therefore] saying that the Christians are correct in their opinion that one is "Dancing With The Devil" by using such device?

I've not experienced any Christians making this claim personally or second hand, so I can't say for sure. But I've noticed many Christians claim 'devil' or 'demons' when anything bad happens, which I don't believe is accurate 100%. Thus, I'd have to say, any Christians making that claim you cited aren't correct, 100% of the time. In other words: "I don't believe it but can't rule it out totally as a possibility".

One-liners such as this contribute nothing to the opinion-based debate.

Meh. They need to be said and heard.

Also, it implies that you were not being sincere with your (well done, by the way ) comment...makes for the possibility of barriers being built by that which is not genuine in expression.

Sarcasm is lost on many. But there's almost always a hint of truth therein.

Thank You Nobs[people]

See? You get it! I guess not all is lost in here

But none of this changes the fact that, IMO (which is what was asked for, originally), these message boards are nothing more than tools, as I said from the get-go, which has yet not been proven to be incorrect.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #19]

Are you [therefore] saying that the Christians are correct in their opinion that one is "Dancing With The Devil" by using such device?

I've not experienced any Christians making this claim personally or second hand, so I can't say for sure.

Really? That is extraordinarily unusual. I direct you to Post #9

But I've noticed many Christians claim 'devil' or 'demons' when anything bad happens, which I don't believe is accurate 100%. Thus, I'd have to say, any Christians making that claim you cited aren't correct, 100% of the time. In other words: "I don't believe it but can't rule it out totally as a possibility".

Post #10 has a link at the bottom which will take you to information which may help you rule it out.

One-liners such as this contribute nothing to the opinion-based debate.

Meh. They need to be said and heard.

Nope. Such contribute nothing to debate. There is no 'need' for them at all.

Also, it implies that you were not being sincere with your (well done, by the way ) comment...makes for the possibility of barriers being built by that which is not genuine in expression.

Sarcasm is lost on many. But there's almost always a hint of truth therein.

I am not interested in sarcasm.

Thank You Nobs[people]

See? You get it! I guess not all is lost in here

I wasn't being sarcastic.

But none of this changes the fact that, IMO (which is what was asked for, originally), these message boards are nothing more than tools, as I said from the get-go, which has yet not been proven to be incorrect.

It is obvious you are not reading the posts in this thread, which is likely why you appear disorientated. It is also obvious that your opinion hasn't been proven to be correct. If anything, it lacks fullness.

For example, - if you were asked your opinion on a hammer, and you answered "It is just a tool" of course that is the obvious bit which goes without saying. [does not need to be said - is simply a one-liner contributing nothing]