Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

[Jagella]

Consider this story from Numbers 15:32-36(NRSV):

When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.� The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Question for Debate: If you were there with these Israelites, would you stone this man in obedience to Moses and to Yahweh?

Keep in mind that this man may have been gathering sticks to build a fire to cook for for his family and to keep them warm. After the Bible god had him killed, any wife he had would be left a widow and any children he had would be left without a father to provide for them. They would be left cold, hungry, and facing poverty. Any friends he had among the Israelites would be obligated to kill their friend.

Despite these consequences of Yahweh's order to stone the man to death, all the Jews and by extension all Christians coming later must obey the Bible god. Any objections you have to this cruel act are nothing to Yahweh and may even result in a similar punishment for disobedience to him. You have a god you must believe in and obey without question and without reason.

I predict that few if any of the Christians here will answer this question honestly and sensibly. To post such an answer is to expose Christian beliefs for what they are.

[Tcg]

I am -- like you and every other human being besides Jesus who has ever or ever will walk this planet (before He returns, of course) -- a filthy, rotten sinner.

You are certainly free to make this claim about yourself, but I must object to your accusation against all humanity. I know a great number of people who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.


If you need some personal examples, get thee to a Quaker Meeting and thy shall know some too. Or a local bar. Either will do. There's plenty of great people out there in the real world.





Tcg

[tam]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

Peace to you.



I do not know how anyone answers this question so absolutely, considering all the variables involved. Different time, different place, different needs for the survival of an entire community, possible errors in the text from the erring pen of the scribes, a definite lack of details from two sentences in a manuscript describing an event that took place three thousand-ish years ago. Although I might point out that the OP suggests that the reader keep in mind that this man might have been gathering sticks to keep his family warm... when this cautionary tale actually comes directly after the warning about a person defiantly breaking the law.


Then there are questions about me: Would I have been the same person at that time? How might events have shaped me differently? Would I have known then what/who I know now?

(Some also seem to forget that Israel vowed to obey Moses. Israel was too afraid to hear God, they wanted Moses to talk to God, then tell them what God wanted, and they would obey whatever Moses, the servant of God, said. So Israel was obligated by their own word. That was their choice.)

I don't particularly like these kinds of questions for those reasons. If you want to know what I would (hope to) do in a situation like that, then ask me a question that is going to pertain to me in the here and now (or at least in my future).


That being said:


IF (big if) the story happened as written, then we are missing extenuating circumstances (obviously we are missing the whole story, considering it is just a few sentences). We can know this because of the example Christ (the image of God) gave us. We can also know that it is unlikely that the man was gathering sticks on the Sabbath to take care of the needs of his family, because of the truth that Christ teaches, that doing something necessary (to help or save another person) is lawful:

He said:

He replied, “If one of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath.� Matthew 12:11

But the synagogue leader was indignant that [Jesus] had healed on the Sabbath. “There are six days for work,� he told the crowd. “So come and be healed on those days and not on the Sabbath.� “You hypocrites!� the Lord replied, “Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it to water? Then should not this daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, be released from her bondage on the Sabbath day?�


And of course we also have Christ saving the life of the woman caught in adultery. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". He even forgave the woman her sins. In fact, this is quite the parallel story is it not? The Sabbath stick gatherer was brought to Moses to see what should be done with him, and the woman who committed adultery was brought to Christ to see what should be done with her. Moses may have done what was necessary at the time (extenuating circumstances); but Christ is the One who did - and who shows us - what God truly desires.


Christ is the One who reveals God to us as God truly is. We already know that Moses had to give some laws due to the hard-heartedness of the people, and of course we also know that the lying pen of the scribes had mishandled the law (Jeremiah 8:8).





**


Oh, and there is at least one thing I could have done regardless of the circumstances (or of the time or place or conditions):


I could have asked for mercy for the man. God desires mercy, after all, and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6). If I had the courage and the love to do this, then I would have done so respectfully, as Abraham asked God about Sodom and Gomorrah. But asking mercy for the man is something I could have done, even 3000-ish years ago.





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

I must object to your accusation against all humanity.

You can if you want. I have no problem with that. Again, I'm just the messenger. I know what I see in myself, and I know what I see in other people every single day. It doesn't make me, like, dislike them, or cause me to think they're "bad people," or think they're immoral, anything like that. But it's not hard to see the sin in every single person you ever come in any kind of contact with, either up close or from afar.

I know a great number of people who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.

Well maybe that's because you have a very wrong concept of sin and what it actually is.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 162 by PinSeeker]


As long as one continues to rely on a book of ancient mythologies, they'll never see the real world for what it is.


The solution is simple, set the book aside and join reality.




Tcg

[Jagella]

You are certainly free to make this claim about yourself, but I must object to your accusation against all humanity. I know a great number of people who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.

If you need some personal examples, get thee to a Quaker Meeting and thy shall know some too. Or a local bar. Either will do. There's plenty of great people out there in the real world.

We could start a whole thread on this subject, but you are correct that most people are generally good. We could not live together as we do if everybody was "filthy, rotten." It is such libel from Christianity that gives the green light to abuse, violence, and killing.

And I should know. I was abused by Christians verbally and physically. The abuse was based in Christian beliefs.

[PinSeeker]

The solution is simple, set the book aside and join reality.

I have no interest in that "reality" -- except for all to see what true Reality is. One day, that will happen. Until then, in the words of Revelation 22, come quickly, Lord Jesus.

[Tcg]

The solution is simple, set the book aside and join reality.

I have no interest in that "reality" --

Yes, we have finally found a point of agreement.


Some of us prefer reality, others rely on ancient texts filled with brutal mythologies about the past, present and future. As we have seen in this thread, some even pretend that barbarism isn't barbarism.





Tcg

[PinSeeker]

We could start a whole thread on this subject, but you are correct that most people are generally good. We could not live together as we do if everybody was "filthy, rotten."

You misunderstand (not a surprise). In worldly terms, yes, most people are "good." They're nice, law-abiding, decent people. But even so, we're all about ourselves; selfish, prideful, disdaining others, even hating and murderous, at least to some degree. All this manifests itself differently in different people, but it's all there, even if muted... or only inwardly. This is the way we all are. Every one of us. As I said above -- not in so many words, but I will now: just because we are sinners -- even filthy, rotten sinners... as if one sinner is a worse sinner than anybody else -- doesn't mean we are in human terms "bad people." It just (chuckle... "just") means we fall far, far short of God's standard of perfection and perfect mercy, justice, and love.

Oh, but God's a MURDERER! <eyeroll> Yeah, here we go again, I'm sure...

It is such libel from Christianity that gives the green light to abuse, violence, and killing.

Nonsense. No one does. But abuse, violence, and murder certainly does happen, even if inadvertently. This is because of the sin in every one of us. Thanks for proving my point.

And I should know. I was abused by Christians verbally and physically. The abuse was based in Christian beliefs.

Maybe so. And that would be because they are filthy rotten sinners, just like everybody else. Thanks for proving my point... again.

[PinSeeker]

Yes, we have finally found a point of agreement.

Good! Right, because you're "reality" is not really reality. You'll see. You'll see.

[William]

[Replying to post 161 by tam]

Then there are questions about me: Would I have been the same person at that time? How might events have shaped me differently? Would I have known then what/who I know now?

(Some also seem to forget that Israel vowed to obey Moses. Israel was too afraid to hear God, they wanted Moses to talk to God, then tell them what God wanted, and they would obey whatever Moses, the servant of God, said. So Israel was obligated by their own word. That was their choice.)

and;

Oh, and there is at least one thing I could have done regardless of the circumstances (or of the time or place or conditions):


I could have asked for mercy for the man. God desires mercy, after all, and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6). If I had the courage and the love to do this, then I would have done so respectfully, as Abraham asked God about Sodom and Gomorrah. But asking mercy for the man is something I could have done, even 3000-ish years ago.

These two things appear to me to be at odds with each other.