Jesus did not fulfill what the Messiah was supposed to do.

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Elijah John
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Re: Jesus did not fulfill what the Messiah was supposed to d

Post #11

Post by Elijah John »

bjs wrote:
Note: The Messiah was supposed to sit on the throne of David and return political control to Israel. (Obviously, Jesus didn’t)
That was a common belief in Jesus day. Jesus said that it was a wrong belief. He stated that “My kingdom if not of this world.�


The point the NAB footnote was making is that the disciples expected Jesus to be a political leader, which means that they did not yet fully understand or accept what it actually meant that Jesus was the Messiah.
Perhaps Jesus and Christians, not Jews, are wrong about what the concept of Messiah means. It would not be the first time that "Jesus" was wrong. (see Matthew 16.28) He was wrong (or the Gospel Evangelists were wrong) about his 2nd coming occurring in the lifetime of his apostles. The "some standing here not tasting death" and all that.

Yes, Jews could be wrong as well regarding the expectation of King David's successor ushering in a Messianic age of universal peace, knowledge of God and the primacy of Israel among the Nations. But as far as I know, (unlike the Gospel Evangelists), they have not predicted when this would actually happen.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
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-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Jesus did not fulfill what the Messiah was supposed to d

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Post by Mithrae »

Elijah John wrote: Yes, Jews could be wrong as well regarding the expectation of King David's successor ushering in a Messianic age of universal peace, knowledge of God and the primacy of Israel among the Nations. But as far as I know, (unlike the Gospel Evangelists), they have not predicted when this would actually happen.
Genesis 49:10 seems at least as un/ambiguous as the gospel predictions of Jesus' return: "The sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs, and the obedience of the nations is his." One could make apologetic deflections for Judah's loss of sovereignty and kingship in the 6th century BCE or even for the dispersal and resettlement of the land as merely being a brief hiatus. But following 135CE - when Israel/Judah had existed for only ~1300-1700 years to begin with - there ceased to be any Judaic state whatsoever for over 1800 years. Unambiguously, the ruler's staff had departed from Judah. If he to whom it belongs had not come to usher in 'the obedience of the nations' by that point then clearly Jews were wrong in that prediction.

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Re: Jesus did not fulfill what the Messiah was supposed to d

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Post by 1213 »

rikuoamero wrote:
1213 wrote:
polonius wrote: The Messiah was supposed to sit on the throne of David and return political control to Israel.
Do you know what is the reason for that expectation?
Writings like Micah 5, as I indicated above, that plainly state a "ruler over Israel", "who will rule[c] the land of Assyria with the sword, the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.[d] He will deliver us from the Assyrians "
In Biblical point of view that will happen and Jesus will rule.

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Re: Messiah to gain political control

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Post by 1213 »

polonius wrote: ….
6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?�[/b] 7 He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority.
By what the Bible tells, that will happen, but it was not meant to happen then as Jews expected it to happen. That it didn’t happen as was expected then, doesn’t mean the prophesy was wrong, or that Jesus is not the Messiah. It can just mean that they had wrong idea of how things should go.

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Re: Jesus did not fulfill what the Messiah was supposed to d

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Post by Sojournerofthearth »

[Replying to post 1 by polonius]
“When they had gathered together they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going* to restore the kingdom to Israel?�7* He answered them,“It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority.�

Note: The Messiah was supposed to sit on the throne of David and return political control to Israel. (Obviously, Jesus didn’t)
Well, having never been a Catholic, I can't, of course, speak for them... but according to the Bible, if one is so inclined, it is told in Daniel that the stone, not cut with hands will smash the kingdoms, or systems, of this world in the last days, Dan 7:13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. ( at which point, the Messiah will sit at the right hand of God until He makes His enemies his footstool. Ps 110:1)
Dan 7:14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, (people that can die, that can be corrupted, that are self-serving and overthrown) but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

In Isaiah 42 it says he doesn't come to create a kerfuffle, but to establish judgement upon the Earth and the Isles will wait for his Law. He came to do what He did. He'll come back to finish the work, and set up His Kingdom on this earth.

People always have preconceived ideas, hopes, opinions... They didn't understand at that time, but over time, a person's understanding grows.

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Re: Jesus did not fulfill what the Messiah was supposed to d

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Post by Sojournerofthearth »

[Replying to post 11 by Elijah John]
It would not be the first time that "Jesus" was wrong. (see Matthew 16.28) He was wrong
Mat 16:27 Verily I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances should be tasting death till they should be perceiving the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom." (Concordant Literal Version)

hmmm... you realize that the chapter breaks were added in, right? Sometimes, they were not very discerning as to where they put them...

Matthew 17:1-6  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,  (2)  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.  (3)  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.  (4)  Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.  (5)  While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.  (6)  And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

They did see the Kingdom of God, right there. Christ in his Glory, Moses and Elijah resurrected. (Because the dead are not resurrected until the return of Christ and the dead know not anything Ecc 9:5, Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? and there is no one gone up to heaven but he who came down from heaven Jn. 3:13).

Anyway, they did see the Kingdom of God.

Soj

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Post #17

Post by dio9 »

obviously Jesus was not the kind of Messiah the people were expecting.

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Re: Jesus did not fulfill what the Messiah was supposed to d

Post #18

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 12 by Mithrae]
But following 135CE - when Israel/Judah had existed for only ~1300-1700 years to begin with - there ceased to be any Judaic state whatsoever for over 1800 years. Unambiguously, the ruler's staff had departed from Judah. If he to whom it belongs had not come to usher in 'the obedience of the nations' by that point then clearly Jews were wrong in that prediction.
What about before 135CE? The last king of Judah was Zedekiah, who ruled roughly 600 years beforehand, from 597-586 BC. Clearly by either your point or mine, this writing of a "ruler's staff" cannot be an actual true prophecy.
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Re: Jesus did not fulfill what the Messiah was supposed to d

Post #19

Post by rikuoamero »

1213 wrote:
rikuoamero wrote:
1213 wrote:
polonius wrote: The Messiah was supposed to sit on the throne of David and return political control to Israel.
Do you know what is the reason for that expectation?
Writings like Micah 5, as I indicated above, that plainly state a "ruler over Israel", "who will rule[c] the land of Assyria with the sword, the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.[d] He will deliver us from the Assyrians "
In Biblical point of view that will happen and Jesus will rule.
There is no Assyria. That nation hasn't existed for about 3,000 years. In fact, it hadn't existed for several centuries before Jesus. Anyway, is this you admitting that Jesus will be a despotic warlord, no different from any other warrior-king throughout history, a Charlemange or a Genghis Khan or a Julius Caesar?
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Messiah to gain political control

Post #20

Post by rikuoamero »

1213 wrote:
polonius wrote: ….
6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?�[/b] 7 He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority.
By what the Bible tells, that will happen, but it was not meant to happen then as Jews expected it to happen. That it didn’t happen as was expected then, doesn’t mean the prophesy was wrong, or that Jesus is not the Messiah. It can just mean that they had wrong idea of how things should go.
Is there any possibility that this "prophecy" is false?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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