Why does Jesus not make himself obvious today?

[marco]

Jesus promised to be with us till the end of the world. Many claim they speak to him and he offers guidance. But the lessons they learn seem to be no more substantial than the footnotes in some good advice book and less penetrating than a university course in moral philosophy. No more miracles; no more public displays. It's as if he really did die with no resurrection.


Would we expect a real Jesus to offer clear evidence of himself today?


Even if there is no Jesus around, is it still a good, comforting thing for some to believe he is?

Are there any dangers in believing Christ is around today?

[marco]

[Replying to post 28 by marco]



He does not return onto the planet earth to wander about invisible to humans, but begins to exercise his power from his elevated position as a mighty spirit being, at the right hand of God. This period of time leads directly up to The Great Tribulation and Armageddon, when God (through his appointed king, Jesus) kills off all wicked people and ends human rulership forever.

Parousia referred to the arrival (adventus) of someone important; such as Emperor Hadrian's arrival in Rome from the East. A coin was struck bearing the words ADVENTUS AUG. So it seems parousia is a pagan borrowing. Maybe a coin will be struck when Jesus arrives.


It is rather sad however that Christ is depicted as a murderer, someone sent to slaughter those who don't agree with some arcane interpretation of biblical texts. Nothing in the reported life of Christ squares with this horrible image. He advocated forgiveness and compassion, and was criticised for spending time with sinners. Why would he later slaughter them? It's the old Church idea of threatening the flock with hell - or in this case, with execution. Supposedly the dead sinners will be revived and killed again. Nonsense.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 28 by marco]



He does not return onto the planet earth to wander about invisible to humans, but begins to exercise his power from his elevated position as a mighty spirit being, at the right hand of God. This period of time leads directly up to The Great Tribulation and Armageddon, when God (through his appointed king, Jesus) kills off all wicked people and ends human rulership forever.

Parousia referred to the arrival (adventus) of someone important...

Biblically, ie according to bible understanding, Jesus (as depicted in the scriptures) used the used the word in a unique way. From the context he was referring to the period of time when he would begin ruling as king in heaven invisibly in the heavens (sed Matthew 24:, Luke 2q, Mark 13, compare Daniel 4, Dan 7:13, 14, Rev 12:9)






JW




NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[JehovahsWitness]

Continued from post #30 by JehovahsWitness The following are all faith statements I have no proof and do not presume to know more than is revealed in scripture




IF CHRIST'S PRESENCE BEGAN IN 1914 WHY WAS IT NOT MARKED BY AN IMPROVEMENT IN WORLD CONDITIONS?

• One might assume that if Jesus did begin ruling in 1914 (see link below for evidence to support this point), then conditions would improve on earth. Why then does the bible indicate this period (often referred to as "The Last Days"/Christ's "presence" (aka "the parousia") or in the book of Revelation, "The Lords day") would be marked by war, social and environmental crisis, and political instability?
  

  1914​—A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy
  https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -prophecy/

WAR IN HEAVEN!

Thanks to the bible book of Revelation we find the missing piece to this puzzle. It explains that one of Christ's* first actions as King was to clean the heavens of demonic presence. Revelation describes this event (unperceived by humans) in this way.

REVELATION 12:7-9NWT

And war broke out in heaven: Michael* and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth,+ and his angels were hurled down with him.

* JESUS under his heavenly name Michael

Note what the bible says is the effect of the above ...

REVELATION 12:12 NWT
I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“... be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.�

Evidently the presence of Satan hitherto free to reside in heaven or on earth, but as if the 20th century restricted uniquely to the vicinity of the earth, has a dramatic effect on earth's inhabitants. Angered by his defeat and impendjng doom, restricted in his movements it seems Satan and the demons intensify their efforts to cause the maximum of damage both to God's planet, his (God's) earthly creation (humans in general) and particular, his faithful servants.

CONCLUSION The Apostle John was given a series of prophetic visions, to be fulfilled during the period leading up to and including {quote} "The Lords day", (aka "Christ's presence"/parousia) aka "The Last Days". The war in heaven around 1914 and Satan's debasement to the vicinity of the earth, explains why the start Jesus rulership is a time of global conflict and increased anguish for earth inhabitants . Happily this period is described as bejng "short" and will end when Jesus "returns" (The Second Coming) for the final battle between good and evil called in the bible, Armageddon.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SATAN THE DEVIL , THE LAKE OF FIRE and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[marco]

Biblically, ie according to bible understanding, Jesus used the word to refer to the period of time when he would begin ruling as king in heaven.

I wasn't contesting biblical usage - simply indicating where the word had its beginnings.

I don't think Jesus would have used the word; Paul would have liked it perhaps, and borrowed it from Roman custom. Why should a Roman Emperor receive honour and not Jesus? This thinking led to Christ's deification.

I don't see anything wrong with adopting a pagan custom. The devil need not have all the best tunes?

[marco]

[Replying to post 32 by JehovahsWitness]

IF CHRIST'S PRESENCE BEGAN IN 1914 WHY WAS IT NOT MARKED BY AN IMPROVEMENT IN WORLD CONDITIONS?

There is no person on earth who can possibly supply an answer to this question. One can surmise but it is surely presumptuous to set oneself up as heaven's interpreter. It is one thing to use the bible and offer exegesis; quite another to set oneself up as judge over the supernatural.

[JehovahsWitness]

Biblically, ie according to bible understanding, Jesus used the word to refer to the period of time when he would begin ruling as king in heaven.

I wasn't contesting biblical usage

Good well, that's all my post are dealing with, biblical usage.




JW



RELATED POSTS


How do some biblical artists depict Christ during his "Second coming"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 881#978881

[polonius]

Biblically, ie according to bible understanding, Jesus (as depicted in the scriptures) used the used the word in a unique way. From the context he was referring to the period of time when he would begin ruling as king in heaven invisibly in the heavens (sed Matthew 24:, Luke 2q, Mark 13, compare Daniel 4, Dan 7:13, 14, Rev 12:9)

JW

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

RESPONSE: Sorry. The old "context " ploy to try to explain away contradiction or errors in scripture isn't really credible.

In both Matthew and Luke, Jesus clearly claimed his second coming would be while some of those hearing his sermon were still alive. Elsewhere, Jesus stated that his followers will have not gone through all the towns of Judea by the time he returned. (Hint; There were not that many towns). And doesn't Jesus tell the Temple's chief priest that he will see Jesus' second coming?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 37 by polonius]


DOES MATTHEW 10:23 INDICATE JESUS WAS ANNOUNING HIS RETURN IN THE FIRST CENTURY?

MATTHEW 10:23

When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.

While Jesus on this occassion was speaking only to his 12 Apostles, the context indicates his words also had a wider application. Firstly, we note The Twelve were being sent only a limited Jewish territory but he says they will be “hated by all people and would be witnesses to kings of "the nations". However, only after his death and resurrection did Jesus authorize his disciples to preach to non Jewish nations, indeed for the duration of his ministry Jesus stressed his commission was only to the house of Israel. So at the very least some of his address on that occassion was destined for believers after his earthly ministry.

HOW FAR INTO THE FUTURE ?

• While one may except some of Jesus words had application beyond his immediate audience, is there any indication this would be beyond the first century. Yes, note Jesus words in verse 22 (just before he mentions the return of the son of man), "And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved, the same expression he was to use speaking about the end of the world system of things , "... you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name...but the one who has endured to the end will be saved." (Matthew 24:9, 13). Given the above it seems reasonable to conclude that Jesus was in fact refering in Matthew 10:23 to a future far beyond the first century.

FROM THE SMALL TO THE BIG

• It was not unusual for Jesus to use objects and events to teach a wider lesson. When a non-jew expresses faith in him, his commendation referred to people from distant lands accepting kingdom truths, when a woman asked about worship he refers to the end of the temple system, when his disciples asked about the end of the temple system he refered to the end of the world! Jesus masterfully weaved present and future applications together to teach local and wider points for both his immediate audience and future generations of believers.
  
  On this occassion, Jesus takes their evident completion of a limited circuit (compare Luke 9:6) and uses the occassion to teach something about their future wider global commission., namely that that his disciples will not complete the preaching about God’s Kingdom before the glorified King Jesus Christ arrives as God’s judge.

CONCLUSION Jesus was using the occassion of his disciple's immediate preaching campaign to illustrate what the situaton would be for future disciples preaching just before the end of the world system.

For more on this topic please go to other posts related to...

LAST DAYS and ...THE SECOND COMING *and ... "DELAYS "DEBUNKED,

*The Return of Christ

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 38 by JehovahsWitness]


This of course reveals the magic of the Bible. It can be interpreted to mean, or in the case, not mean, whatever the interpreter wants it to not mean.

The clear meaning can be easily rejected when the clear meaning shows a clear failure on the Bible's part.

If there truly ever has a Jesus, he'd be astonished by all the things he reportedly said, but didn't mean.


Tcg

[2Dbunk]

Jesus promised to be with us till the end of the world. Many claim they speak to him and he offers guidance. But the lessons they learn seem to be no more substantial than the footnotes in some good advice book and less penetrating than a university course in moral philosophy. No more miracles; no more public displays. It's as if he really did die with no resurrection.

Simply put: if he existed, he wasn't the son of God, anymore than any one of us.

Would we expect a real Jesus to offer clear evidence of himself today?

I think he would have presented himself much more effectively. For instance, why his coyness in not returning when he said he would? OR his callousness in letting the 'lost' souls of earth continually accumulate over two thousand years -- the "lake of fire" will be filled beyond capacity; if all this is true, he should be labeled a monster!

Even if there is no Jesus around, is it still a good, comforting thing for some to believe he is?

Only to those who can't get beyond their earliest Sunday School indoctrinations.

Are there any dangers in believing Christ is around today?

Maybe. It depends on the psyche of those most negatively affected by our secular society. There have been horrific responses by some delusional fanatics, convinced they must come to the 'spirit's' rescue (as if It couldn't rescue itself).